Historic Retaining Wall

Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:12 am

arborlad wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:Hi stu,

if I own the land on which the wall stands and it retains my land and I leave the wall to fall into a state of disrepair then so what?
if I own the land on which the wall stands and my neighbour's land benefits from some support and I leave the wall to fall into a state of disrepair then so what?

I am liable for any trespass or damage caused by my collapsed wall (and land if mine was retained) but nothing more.

Kind regards, Mac



You've failed to grasp who lowered or raised what, plus whatever right of support they may have had.

Hi arborlad,

just because I don't mention something please do not presume I don't grasp it.

mentioning who raised or lowered their land isn't going to mean either party MUST maintain the wall.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby Geometer » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:32 am

MacadamB53 wrote: Hi Geometer,

any right to support comes with an ancillary right to maintain - so if the wall starts crumbling and you want to keep benefiting then you can repair - you cannot, however, demand that your neighbour do it for you.
OK, I see what you mean. I'll have to think about that.

MacadamB53 wrote:the Wikipedia content about pounds in England does not corroborate you're claim:

"By the 16th century most villages and townships would have had a pound. Most of what remains today would date from the 16th and 17th centuries."

Kind regards, Mac

It does, unless you're postulating that every pound built post-C17 was systematically destroyed within 300 years of its construction, while every pound built pre-C17 was subject merely to the normal ravages of time.
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:46 am

Hi Geometer,

I wasn't doing the postulating, but heyho.

all we know is that, according to Wikipedia:

1. most pounds that haven't been demolished were built in the 16th or 17th century - we have NO idea why these particular pounds have not been destroyed or what proportion of the total they represent.
2. most townships and villages in 16th century England had a pound - we have NO idea whether once a township or village had itself a pound that was it - no change of location, no alterations, no additional pounds built later

basically, you'd need to know the number of pounds that had ever been built and when they were built - which is what you seemed to have knowledge of: "Most village pounds were built in the 16th and 17th centuries".

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby Geometer » Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:20 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi Geometer,

basically, you'd need to know the number of pounds that had ever been built and when they were built -
Kind regards, Mac

No, you don't need to know those things. All you need is some knowledge of the history of the English countryside, some understanding of the basic principles of landscape archaeology, and the ability to make logical deductions based on those principles and the available evidence.

One of the fundamental, axiomatic, principles of archaeology is that the older a structure is, the less likely its survival into modern times. The corollary of this is that the more recently a structure is built, the more likely it is to survive.

If, as you're hypothesising, the practice of pound-building continued into the C18/C19 on a scale in any way comparable to that of the previous 4 or 5 centuries, then logic dictates that a significant proportion of these later pounds would still be in existence - not necessarily more than survive from C16/C17, but a greater proportion of those built in that period. The fact that "most" survivals are from the C16/C17 implies that few, at best, survive from C18/C19, which in turn implies that significantly fewer, if any, were built.

"Implication" is not the same as "proof", I'll grant you, but if a significant number of pounds were actually built post-C17, then there has to be a reason why so few survive today. At the very least, it's a statistical anomaly that bears further investigation; at the most, it's a previously unrecognised phenomenon unprecedented in both the historical and the archaeological records.

I can think of only two possible explanations for this anomaly. The first is that, for some reason, the quality of pound-building plummeted on a national scale early in C18. Consequently, all pound walls built were constructed so shoddily, and succumbed so rapidly to wear-and-tear, that little trace of them remains today.

The alternative is that at some time in the late C19/early C20, for an unknown reason, some individual, or group of individuals, or class of persons, set out to deliberately, selectively, systematically and successfully remove all trace of village pounds built within the previous 200 years.

Both explanations are unsatisfactory. In fact, both explanations are utterly absurd. Given that, the only logical explanation for the lack of surviving C18/C19 village pounds is that they were never built in the first place.
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:40 pm

Hi Geometer,

the only logical explanation for the lack of surviving C18/C19 village pounds is that they were never built in the first place.

I disagree with the above statement, but let's be clear - I have not been "hypothesising" anything at all. I declared an assumption in order to provide an example for the OP to illustrate that it is the sequence of events that needs to be studied if they want to establish who owns the wall.

if there is no historical evidence I can not see the next best thing is being to say "of the few pounds that have been preserved, most were built before 1700 therefore the pound in this instance must have been (or is very likely to have been) built before 1700."

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby Geometer » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:33 pm

MacadamB53 wrote: Hi Geometer,
I have not been "hypothesising" anything at all.
Well, yes you have. You've proposed an explanation for the OP's circumstances, based on your assumptions and your interpretation of the available evidence, that can be tested against any further evidence that may be forthcoming - the definition of a hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis

MacadamB53 wrote:I declared an assumption
You said it, not me :roll:

MacadamB53 wrote:it is the sequence of events that needs to be studied if they want to establish who owns the wall.
I totally agree. It's clear that the OP's circumstances are not "run of the mill", and in such a situation it is not safe to make assumptions, but... Oh dear, you just did :shock:

MacadamB53 wrote:
the only logical explanation for the lack of surviving C18/C19 village pounds is that they were never built in the first place.

I disagree with the above statement

I'd be very interested to know why you disagree.

G.
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:09 pm

Hi G,

and in such a situation it is not safe to make assumptions, but... Oh dear, you just did

how thoroughly disingenuous of you.

whilst it is not safe FOR THE PERSON MAKING A CLAIM to base it on assumptions, it is perfectly safe for anyone to use an assumption AND DECLARE IT IS AN ASSUMPTION just for illustrative purposes.

I disagree with your logic because it is fallacious.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby Geometer » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:22 pm

MacadamB53 wrote: Hi G,
whilst it is not safe FOR THE PERSON MAKING A CLAIM to base it on assumptions, it is perfectly safe for anyone to use an assumption AND DECLARE IT IS AN ASSUMPTION just for illustrative purposes.

Fair enough. I suppose the "danger" of making assumptions in public is that somebody is going to challenge them, which I've done, and you then have to justify them, which you haven't.

MacadamB53 wrote:I disagree with your logic because it is fallacious.
In what way is it fallacious? Please explain.
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby ukmicky » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:21 pm

Time out gents
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby MacadamB53 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:00 pm

Hi nothingtodowithme,

you might like the following if you're interested in village pounds:

http://search.shropshirehistory.org.uk/collections/search/?cb_ipp=15&fq%5Bdc.subject%5D%5B%5D=Pound&q=:&cb_submit=Search&cb_page=2

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby Geometer » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:43 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi nothingtodowithme,

you might like the following if you're interested in village pounds:

http://search.shropshirehistory.org.uk/collections/search/?cb_ipp=15&fq%5Bdc.subject%5D%5B%5D=Pound&q=:&cb_submit=Search&cb_page=2

Kind regards, Mac


I did acknowledge the possibility of regional exceptions, Mac; however, I was assuming the OP lives in what Oliver Rackham calls the "Planned Countryside", i.e. the Midlands, the South or the East; the region in which the Enclosure Acts had the most impact. Shropshire is what he calls "Ancient Countryside", i.e. the West and North of England, where what are essentially a Medieval landscape and, to some extent, Medieval agricultural practices still survive.

It might have been unwise to assume that, but it doesn't change my opinion that, on balance of probability, the OP's pound is more likely to pre-date his cottage than post-date it. There are reasons for that which I haven't touched on yet.

G.
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby MacadamB53 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:00 am

Hi G,

I was assuming the OP lives in what Oliver Rackham calls the "Planned Countryside"

why did you assume that?

Kind regards Mac
could you point me to reliable source where I can find out about few animal pounds being built/re-built/modified post-C17?
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby Geometer » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:15 pm

MacadamB53 wrote: Hi G,

I was assuming the OP lives in what Oliver Rackham calls the "Planned Countryside"

why did you assume that?

Because, excluding major urban areas, the majority of the English population lives there.

MacadamB53 wrote:Kind regards Mac
could you point me to reliable source where I can find out about few animal pounds being built/re-built/modified post-C17?

Unfortunately not, other than the Wikipedia article. I did spend 3 hours yesterday afternoon searching my local 2nd-hand bookshops for a copy of Rackham's History of the Countryside without success, and much as I wish it wasn't so, I don't have time to spare for trawling the internet. However, given the historical context, it doesn't seem unreasonable to conclude that, in lowland England at least, the construction of village pounds when into a steady decline over the course of the 18th century.

G.
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby span » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:44 pm

Geometer wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote: Hi G,

I was assuming the OP lives in what Oliver Rackham calls the "Planned Countryside"

why did you assume that?

Because, excluding major urban areas, the majority of the English population lives there.

MacadamB53 wrote:Kind regards Mac
could you point me to reliable source where I can find out about few animal pounds being built/re-built/modified post-C17?

Unfortunately not, other than the Wikipedia article. I did spend 3 hours yesterday afternoon searching my local 2nd-hand bookshops for a copy of Rackham's History of the Countryside without success, and much as I wish it wasn't so, I don't have time to spare for trawling the internet. However, given the historical context, it doesn't seem unreasonable to conclude that, in lowland England at least, the construction of village pounds when into a steady decline over the course of the 18th century.

G.


http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Country ... 1842124404

That took me 20 seconds, inc the time to post this.....
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Re: Historic Retaining Wall

Postby Geometer » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:23 pm

span wrote:http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Country ... 1842124404

That took me 20 seconds, inc the time to post this.....
Good for you, but I meant "trawling the internet for references", not for a copy of Rackham.
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