Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby despair » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:50 pm

Treeman .............you need to try putting yourself in the innocent neighbours shoes and see things properly from their side of the boundary

Instead you pretend the Law and TPOs and tree surgeons are wonderful

In essense they most certainly are not in many instances
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Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby famflips » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:43 pm

,,, some recommended distances of how far away from borders or boundary can be found listed as under -

GARDEN LAW - TREE ROOTS

or try - ALAN Harris@btopenworld.com

I am not saying the figures they show are set in stone but give a reasonable idea

...
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Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby Treeman » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:51 pm

famflips wrote:,,, some recommended distances of how far away from borders or boundary can be found listed as under -

GARDEN LAW - TREE ROOTS

or try - ALAN Harris@btopenworld.com

I am not saying the figures they show are set in stone but give a reasonable idea

...

The authors of the document that data set came from were concerned enough about the abuse of that data to go on record describing it as corrupted and statistically limited

Others have used it because thru don't have anything of thoer own. It's junk and gardenlaw should qualify it as such or delete it
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Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby Treeman » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:56 pm

despair wrote:Treeman .............you need to try putting yourself in the innocent neighbours shoes and see things properly from their side of the boundary

Instead you pretend the Law and TPOs and tree surgeons are wonderful

In essense they most certainly are not in many instances




I can't get into those shoes, you are in there serving tea and sympathy. I don't do that, it's not going to provide resolution. If you want to do tea and sympathy you could always start a forum for that...
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Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby famflips » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:09 pm

... The following is a summary of the situation -


TO COUNCIL TPO office

Dear Madam The roots of my neighbours two huge trees having extended about 15 feet beyond our boundary -
breaking up and causing damage to my property that will cost some £6000 to put right - as expected of a law abiding citizen I am enquiring if any TPO exists - prior to considering what action my neighbour and I can agree upon in order to halt further progress of the roots - and enable me to have all damaged surfaces restored.



REPLY from TPO office

Dear Sir I can confirm that NO TPO exists - However we have despatched our Trees official to inspect - and as a result of his vist I have issued TPO nr 1357 - It is now illegal for you or your neighbour to cut back or remove ANY part of the trees without first contacting this office and awaiting a decision that we may or may not grant. Any attempts
to infringe or by-pass my TPO will now render you liable to prosecution by the Council - and a max fine of £20,000 per tree !

If we can be of any further assistance do not hesitate to contact your friendly TPO officer.

Signed - A Jobsworth TPO / Planning office

..
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Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby TOTOO » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:53 pm

famflips wrote:... The following is a summary of the situation -


TO COUNCIL TPO office

Dear Madam The roots of my neighbours two huge trees having extended about 15 feet beyond our boundary -
breaking up and causing damage to my property that will cost some £6000 to put right - as expected of a law abiding citizen I am enquiring if any TPO exists - prior to considering what action my neighbour and I can agree upon in order to halt further progress of the roots - and enable me to have all damaged surfaces restored.



REPLY from TPO office

Dear Sir I can confirm that NO TPO exists - However we have despatched our Trees official to inspect - and as a result of his vist I have issued TPO nr 1357 - It is now illegal for you or your neighbour to cut back or remove ANY part of the trees without first contacting this office and awaiting a decision that we may or may not grant. Any attempts
to infringe or by-pass my TPO will now render you liable to prosecution by the Council - and a max fine of £20,000 per tree !

If we can be of any further assistance do not hesitate to contact your friendly TPO officer.

Signed - A Jobsworth TPO / Planning office

..


...or someone who sees a bigger picture.
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Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby syckend » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:18 pm

Hi famflips below is a reply I gave earlier this evening.
You were asking on October 16th about a legal case - well the Delaware Mansions case is something you should mention when you write to the LA. This a reply I gave a little while ago about tree roots which gives you all the references you will need to further your cause.

syckend wrote:http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200102/ldjudgmt/jd011025/dela-1.htm
In the Delaware Mansions case 25 October 2001 Lord Cooke of Thorndon delivered a judgement [which had unanimous support of fellow judges] in which he dismissed an appeal by Westminster City Council who were claiming they were not responsible for damage to flats caused by tree roots.
38. In the end, in my opinion, the law can be summed up in the proposition that, where there is a continuing nuisance of which the defendant knew or ought to have known, reasonable remedial expenditure may be recovered by the owner who has had to incur it. In the present case this was Flecksun. Accordingly I would dismiss the appeal with costs.

[Info - Flecksun who were joint plaintiffs, had in 1990 acquired the freehold of Delaware Mansions from the original owners and developers, the Church Commissioners.]

This judgement puts the onus for preventing or paying for subsequent damage caused by tree roots firmly on the tree owner.
So if a tree owner knows that trees are causing damage - or are big enough to cause damage in the future they ignore the situation at their peril. And to follow the argument to a logical conclusion I would expect [but I'm not a lawer!] that if a TPO imposed by a Council prevents a tree owner from taking remedial action - then they could be liable too......

If you do not want to wade through the dense judgement from the House of Lords, I can recommend a succinct report of it compiled by Dot Sharman of Hedgeline which can be viewed here under Potential damage to buildings http://freespace.virgin.net/clare.h/hdg ... htm#DAMAGE
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Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby famflips » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:19 pm

Thankyou Syckend for the law case details you have provided which could well prove helpful if the TPO situation
continues to deterioate. At present I am going through inspection of the roots and approval for rectifying action
to proceed with tree owners insurance and remains to be seen if the recently granted TPO will continue to be an obstruction to progress.

with thanks - famflips
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Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby Whomping Willow » Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:34 pm

TOTOO wrote:This is the interesting part because should the LA refuse remedial tree works as a result of tree related damage then the LA stands to be financially responsible for the tree rather than the actual tree owner, i.e. the any insurance claim will be shifted to the LA not the tree owner.
Obviously the LA will have to defend this postion or not.


This is only partially true; if a Council refuses tree works which lead to reasonably foreseeable loss or damage the Council should be prepared to pay compensation; neither an insurance company nor a tree owner will be let off the hook - it merely brings another third party into the situation; the tree owner has their hands tied but still has potential liability, whilst the insurance company may have to repair any damage (depending on the nature of the insurance policy) and then make the claim against the Council. The Council's responsibility is limited to "loss and damage" not to the tree as a whole.

In addition under the ABI's tree root agreement a domestic tree owner's liability for damage may be minimal; this restriction is heavily caveated but immensely useful.
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Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby Whomping Willow » Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:51 pm

famflips wrote:We are also another household affected by neighbours tree roots - and if my experienes are anything to go by then
do not bring in or contact your local TPO officer - whome it seems are only interested in taking action to protect the owner of any offending tree. Judge for yourselves - After some delay it was agreed that remedial action would be sought through neighbours insurance - with further delay attributed to neighbour wishing to establish whether or not his two trees "'were affected'" by any existing TPOs. As I understand it - under TPOs it will be unlawful for me to have these roots removed and I shall have to live with all of the problems shown in a - b - c above. Do we have 28 days to object to the TPO or 6 month ?


It sounds like the TPO has come into immediate effect and the Council should have given you the appropriate time to make your comments and objections - 28 days sounds appropriate; if you need more time you need to get a letter in objecting and asking for more time. The TPO as it stands is likely to be a temporary TPO and without further confirmation by the Council will lapse after 6 months; the Council needs to confirm (i.e. legally approve) the TPO for it to become permanent. Typically, once an objection is raised the matter gets taken out of the hands of the Tree Officer and given to the Planning Committee of Councillors to deal with; however Council's vary and you will need to ask them how they intend to deal with the case. With the 28 days gone and Planning Committee's typically occuring once a month you probably have a three month window in which to act.

Depending on the nature of the problems caused by the trees I would consider one or more of the following:

i) photographs, preferably digital with date imprint on each
ii) a clear statement with description of what damage has occurred and when: by you or a professional if need be
iii) a clear statement of what practical difficulties this damage is causing you
iv) one of more quotations describing what would be required to repair the damage; make sure a price is included but remove any signs of "betterment"
v) an assessment (possibly by a solicitor) as to whether the trees are causing a nuisance (a legal term, not as is commonly used)

When you have some or all of the above you might want to call your local Councillor and ask him to have a look; do this well before any Planning Committee meets; you will need to do some political homework - who sits on the Planning Committee? Does your local Councillor? Is you local Councillor of the same political persuasion as the majority of the Planning Committee? If your case is heading towards the Planning Committee you might want to ensure that each Councillor on the Committee is briefed on the case; a brief factual letter/report might be appropriate, but not the night before the Committee meeting - give them time to digest the facts; you might ask the Planning Committee to consider a site visit (to your house) rather than make a decision without this.

The decision should boil down to weighing up several things - how important are the trees? how significant is the damage? what options exist to retain the trees but allow repair to your property? is this a first occurrence and are you rushing to remove trees, or has this occurred before - is this a second offence?

Minor damage, minor repair costs will lead to a TPO being confirmed and the trees retained
Major damage and few options or expensive options for repair may lead to some common sense being seen, but I wouldn't guarantee that!
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Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby famflips » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:06 pm

Thank you Whomping Willow for your additional information. I have most of the photograph shots as required and am grateful for your further advice. - These boards have proven most informative and I am also grateful to the other replies. I shall now be busy contacting the various councillors and committee members etc -
Thanks again -

Famflips

...
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Re: Tree Roots LA PTO hinderance

Postby famflips » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:51 pm

... Not sure if the following has already been added so may be repeating - Just to advise that regarding the tree roots
that have broken up part of our property - whereby soon after we approached our neighbour explaining the situation
they then in collaboration with the local council had a TPO imposed. I am therefore pleased to advise that
after engaging and supplying our own arborist report together with opposing the application we now understand that the TPO is no longer valid and as a result some branches and roots have now been considerably lopped and the offenders
insurance are arranging restoration of the property affected. Thanks to all those who gave their support and advice.

famflips

...
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