Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby TO » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:49 pm

Hi

Treeman wrote:Well if its the intent of the owner that makes it waste then we are well out of that since the courts have decided that the owner of the tree is the owner of the arising's.
But if you are employed by the tree owner to fell/prune the tree and dispose of the arisings, at the point of removal by you they become waste. There is case law for this. (Please don't ask it's been a long week).

Treeman wrote:The EA change is a housekeeping exercise, rather than have an exemption for the roadside checks to get their heads around they are issuing free licences for the exempt.
Why would the EA need to issue a licence, free or otherwise, for something that is exempt? Exempt is exempt, it doesn't need a licence. If a licence is required it follows that it is not exempt.

TO
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby Treeman » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:20 am

TO wrote:Hi

Treeman wrote:Well if its the intent of the owner that makes it waste then we are well out of that since the courts have decided that the owner of the tree is the owner of the arising's.
But if you are employed by the tree owner to fell/prune the tree and dispose of the arisings, at the point of removal by you they become waste. There is case law for this. (Please don't ask it's been a long week).

Treeman wrote:The EA change is a housekeeping exercise, rather than have an exemption for the roadside checks to get their heads around they are issuing free licences for the exempt.
Why would the EA need to issue a licence, free or otherwise, for something that is exempt? Exempt is exempt, it doesn't need a licence. If a licence is required it follows that it is not exempt.

TO


But you aren't engaged by the tree owner, you are engaged by the neighbour and the instruction is not to remove the arising's because they are legally the property of the tree owner, IF there were any waste liability it would be with the owner of the waste.

Have you ever been in a roadside check? It seems not so here is the picture, its a rainy Friday evening and VOSA are happy with your truck, HMCE have dipped and all is well, Plod has checked your licence, MOT and insurance and despite the default senseofhumorectomy all is smiles. Even the Peeps from DWP are happy you have no illegal workers.

Now before you can go all you have to do is convince the under trained Herbert from the EA that your load is exempt.

You do this by providing chapter and verse and a letter from his bosses. This is out of the ordinary for him and he has to check, ask questions, phone his supervisor, look in the rule book and do all this while the rain runs down your neck before he can tick the box.

He then decides he cant decide and defaults to reporting you, generating un necessary paperwork that takes time and effort to squash at a later date.

In future you will show him your licence and he will tick his box, Hallelujah I am off on my way home.........Bring on the licence I say
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby Greenthumb » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:44 am

You offer back, because to keep it would amount to theft. The owner either accepts the offer or declines it. If they decline it you have the bits to get rid of.


Its that last bit, aren't we just assuming that if the owner says no, that its yours to get rid of. Isn't the "offer" just use of a pleasant term.

If I offer it to the owner, and they say no, don't they then offer it to me, in which case i'll also say no.Where is my opportunity to decline taking possession of something that has never been mine. Trimming doesn't constitute ownership, its removal. My ownership is of my property and i'm merely removing a neighbours property that doesn't belong there. It seems to be an assumption that when you offer they must say yes, or its yours to dispose of. That seems like a big jump and no-one in supposed authority, inc now the citizens advice bureau, seems to agree with it.

Imagine a neighbour's clothes blew off their clothes line and landed in your garden. They don't belong on your property so you gather them up and offer them back. Does the act of gathering them up make them your property, with responsibility for disposal being yours, if the neighbour says they don't want them back? :shock: :?:

In both cases, your neighbours carelessness has led to their stuff ending up on your property and you are simply returning it.
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby Treeman » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:28 am

Greenthumb wrote:
You offer back, because to keep it would amount to theft. The owner either accepts the offer or declines it. If they decline it you have the bits to get rid of.


Its that last bit, aren't we just assuming that if the owner says no, that its yours to get rid of. Isn't the "offer" just use of a pleasant term.

If I offer it to the owner, and they say no, don't they then offer it to me, in which case i'll also say no.Where is my opportunity to decline taking possession of something that has never been mine. Trimming doesn't constitute ownership, its removal. My ownership is of my property and i'm merely removing a neighbours property that doesn't belong there. It seems to be an assumption that when you offer they must say yes, or its yours to dispose of. That seems like a big jump and no-one in supposed authority, inc now the citizens advice bureau, seems to agree with it.

Imagine a neighbour's clothes blew off their clothes line and landed in your garden. They don't belong on your property so you gather them up and offer them back. Does the act of gathering them up make them your property, with responsibility for disposal being yours, if the neighbour says they don't want them back? :shock: :?:

In both cases, your neighbours carelessness has led to their stuff ending up on your property and you are simply returning it.



If they decline the return you could always offer them a legal action to recover the cost of disposal, recovering costs for abating the nuisance will likely fail but I don't see the courts condoning the expense of the disposal of third party property.
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby despair » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:19 pm

All goes back to people planting things with consideration to height and spread and ensuring the foliage and branches do not extend beyond your boundary
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby arborlad » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:16 pm

despair wrote:.............. and ensuring the foliage and branches do not extend beyond your boundary



What a sad vista that would be. The next time you leave your enclave, try and imagine it with those rules applied!
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smile...it confuses people
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby Conveyancer » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:45 pm

As I said above, I think it all comes down to the law of trespass. Trespass to land is about interference with someone's land and does not just involve an individual going onto land. If placing a ladder against a garden wall so that the top part encroaches into the neighbour's airspace is a trespass then throwing something onto your neighbour's land is trespass. It makes no difference if the ladder or the thing thrown belongs to the neighbour.

In practice you can throw back a ball or washing that has landed in your garden. The neighbour can hardly complain since it would be what he would expect. One could almost say that there is implied consent to return the object so that there would in fact be no trespass. Arisings are different. It is not reasonable to assume that your neighbour wants a load of worthless clippings or dead branches. It is certainly not possible to assume your neighbour consents to the arisings being thrown over the fence so that they cause damage or require him to clear up a mess. Even if you bag the clippings up it is difficult to see how the generally implied consent for the public to enter property for certain lawful purposes extends to leaving bags of waste.

The law allows you to abate the nuisance of vegetation encroaching into your airspace. However, if you choose to exercise that right you have to accept the consequences and that includes disposing of the arisings if your neighbour does not want them. Whether, and if so in what circumstances, you can ask your neighbour to pay the cost of abatement and disposal is a quite different question.
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby Treeman » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:58 pm

Conveyancer wrote:As I said above, I think it all comes down to the law of trespass. Trespass to land is about interference with someone's land and does not just involve an individual going onto land. If placing a ladder against a garden wall so that the top part encroaches into the neighbour's airspace is a trespass then throwing something onto your neighbour's land is trespass. It makes no difference if the ladder or the thing thrown belongs to the neighbour.

In practice you can throw back a ball or washing that has landed in your garden. The neighbour can hardly complain since it would be what he would expect. One could almost say that there is implied consent to return the object so that there would in fact be no trespass. Arisings are different. It is not reasonable to assume that your neighbour wants a load of worthless clippings or dead branches. It is certainly not possible to assume your neighbour consents to the arisings being thrown over the fence so that they cause damage or require him to clear up a mess. Even if you bag the clippings up it is difficult to see how the generally implied consent for the public to enter property for certain lawful purposes extends to leaving bags of waste.

The law allows you to abate the nuisance of vegetation encroaching into your airspace. However, if you choose to exercise that right you have to accept the consequences and that includes disposing of the arisings if your neighbour does not want them. Whether, and if so in what circumstances, you can ask your neighbour to pay the cost of abatement and disposal is a quite different question.



Well the law calls it theft if you simply dispose of them so they belong to the owner no matter what, if they decline them here is how it plays out, if you don't want them back I will dispose of them and when I have done so I will present you with the bill for the reasonable expenses incurred, if you don't settle that then we are off to the CC to speak to the judge.

I have been down that route many times on a clients behalf many tree owners thought they would chance it as a bluff until they sought legal advice. One was a particularly arrogant solicitor, who had tried to foist the expense onto a fixed income pensioner. He folded like a cheap newspaper when presented with the court option.

They might think they don't have to take the branches back and indeed, they don't, but if they do decline they have to be ready for the expense ofption
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby ukmicky » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:33 pm

Treeman wrote:
Conveyancer wrote:As I said above, I think it all comes down to the law of trespass. Trespass to land is about interference with someone's land and does not just involve an individual going onto land. If placing a ladder against a garden wall so that the top part encroaches into the neighbour's airspace is a trespass then throwing something onto your neighbour's land is trespass. It makes no difference if the ladder or the thing thrown belongs to the neighbour.

In practice you can throw back a ball or washing that has landed in your garden. The neighbour can hardly complain since it would be what he would expect. One could almost say that there is implied consent to return the object so that there would in fact be no trespass. Arisings are different. It is not reasonable to assume that your neighbour wants a load of worthless clippings or dead branches. It is certainly not possible to assume your neighbour consents to the arisings being thrown over the fence so that they cause damage or require him to clear up a mess. Even if you bag the clippings up it is difficult to see how the generally implied consent for the public to enter property for certain lawful purposes extends to leaving bags of waste.

The law allows you to abate the nuisance of vegetation encroaching into your airspace. However, if you choose to exercise that right you have to accept the consequences and that includes disposing of the arisings if your neighbour does not want them. Whether, and if so in what circumstances, you can ask your neighbour to pay the cost of abatement and disposal is a quite different question.



Well the law calls it theft if you simply dispose of them so they belong to the owner no matter what, if they decline them here is how it plays out, if you don't want them back I will dispose of them and when I have done so I will present you with the bill for the reasonable expenses incurred, if you don't settle that then we are off to the CC to speak to the judge.

I have been down that route many times on a clients behalf many tree owners thought they would chance it as a bluff until they sought legal advice. One was a particularly arrogant solicitor, who had tried to foist the expense onto a fixed income pensioner. He folded like a cheap newspaper when presented with the court option.

They might think they don't have to take the branches back and indeed, they don't, but if they do decline they have to be ready for the expense ofption

The problem is when you take someone to court your legal team will look for precedents from similar cases to aid the court in its decision.

In this instance their is very little case law on the matter and no real precendents and it would be a big gamble for both sides .

Due to the potential high costs involved with any legal action ,I wouldnt take the chance of sueing my neighbour for the cost of disposal should he decide to call my bluff. And their are many people out there who would call someones bluff. Especially if they could end up paying every year for the disposal.
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby Treeman » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:11 pm

ukmicky wrote:
Treeman wrote:
Conveyancer wrote:As I said above, I think it all comes down to the law of trespass. Trespass to land is about interference with someone's land and does not just involve an individual going onto land. If placing a ladder against a garden wall so that the top part encroaches into the neighbour's airspace is a trespass then throwing something onto your neighbour's land is trespass. It makes no difference if the ladder or the thing thrown belongs to the neighbour.

In practice you can throw back a ball or washing that has landed in your garden. The neighbour can hardly complain since it would be what he would expect. One could almost say that there is implied consent to return the object so that there would in fact be no trespass. Arisings are different. It is not reasonable to assume that your neighbour wants a load of worthless clippings or dead branches. It is certainly not possible to assume your neighbour consents to the arisings being thrown over the fence so that they cause damage or require him to clear up a mess. Even if you bag the clippings up it is difficult to see how the generally implied consent for the public to enter property for certain lawful purposes extends to leaving bags of waste.

The law allows you to abate the nuisance of vegetation encroaching into your airspace. However, if you choose to exercise that right you have to accept the consequences and that includes disposing of the arisings if your neighbour does not want them. Whether, and if so in what circumstances, you can ask your neighbour to pay the cost of abatement and disposal is a quite different question.



Well the law calls it theft if you simply dispose of them so they belong to the owner no matter what, if they decline them here is how it plays out, if you don't want them back I will dispose of them and when I have done so I will present you with the bill for the reasonable expenses incurred, if you don't settle that then we are off to the CC to speak to the judge.

I have been down that route many times on a clients behalf many tree owners thought they would chance it as a bluff until they sought legal advice. One was a particularly arrogant solicitor, who had tried to foist the expense onto a fixed income pensioner. He folded like a cheap newspaper when presented with the court option.

They might think they don't have to take the branches back and indeed, they don't, but if they do decline they have to be ready for the expense ofption

The problem is when you take someone to court your legal team will look for precedents from similar cases to aid the court in its decision.

In this instance their is very little case law on the matter and no real precendents and it would be a big gamble for both sides .

Due to the potential high costs involved with any legal action ,I wouldnt take the chance of sueing my neighbour for the cost of disposal should he decide to call my bluff. And their are many people out there who would call someones bluff. Especially if they could end up paying every year for the disposal.



Its a claim for expenses in the county. What kind of legal team do you need for that????
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby ukmicky » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:21 pm

Depends on how much money they have and how much either side want to win . Even county court cases can escalate If the defendants or claimants decide they want to hire in the professionals to present their case. Many do.

A County court decision may not also be the end of the matter if leave for appeal is sought and granted .
Last edited by ukmicky on Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby Treeman » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:30 pm

ukmicky wrote:Depends on how much money they have and how much either side want to win . Even county court cases can escalate If the defendants or claimants decide they want to hire in the professionals to present their case. Many do.

A County court decision may not also be the end of the matter if leave for appeal is sought and granted and it then ends up in a high court.



I recon you are over egging that pudding, "legal team" how many solicitors does it take to present a case for losses in the CC, well none really, you can do it yourself but if you are using a pro then 1 at most.

Do you see a case for what a couple of hundred quid going to higher court when going there would cost more in the first ten minutes than the original cost?
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby ukmicky » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:34 pm

Treeman wrote:
ukmicky wrote:Depends on how much money they have and how much either side want to win . Even county court cases can escalate If the defendants or claimants decide they want to hire in the professionals to present their case. Many do.

A County court decision may not also be the end of the matter if leave for appeal is sought and granted and it then ends up in a high court.



I recon you are over egging that pudding, "legal team" how many solicitors does it take to present a case for losses in the CC, well none really, you can do it yourself but if you are using a pro then 1 at most.

Do you see a case for what a couple of hundred quid going to higher court when going there would cost more in the first ten minutes than the original cost?
It happens.

Also paying for it this year and then the next and the next could push someone to defend themselves properly.
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby Treeman » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:46 pm

ukmicky wrote:
Treeman wrote:
ukmicky wrote:Depends on how much money they have and how much either side want to win . Even county court cases can escalate If the defendants or claimants decide they want to hire in the professionals to present their case. Many do.

A County court decision may not also be the end of the matter if leave for appeal is sought and granted and it then ends up in a high court.



I recon you are over egging that pudding, "legal team" how many solicitors does it take to present a case for losses in the CC, well none really, you can do it yourself but if you are using a pro then 1 at most.

Do you see a case for what a couple of hundred quid going to higher court when going there would cost more in the first ten minutes than the original cost?
It happens.

Also paying for it this year and then the next and the next could push someone to defend themselves properly.



If ya say so but I don't think so
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Re: Returning/not returning trimmings to neighbour

Postby kipper » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:45 pm

How many times has it gone past the threat stage and what were the judgements in the small claims court, I.e full cost of claim or partial?
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