Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby arborlad » Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:35 pm

Has the wall ever been rebuilt?
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby Trailerman » Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:53 pm

Treeman wrote:4. Now there is your main problem, unless you can establish that you have an interest in the wall this goes no further than clearing it and a few squashed plants. The court wont assume anything, they expect you to demonstrate


I believe I can demonstrate that the wall was, on balance of probability, built at the same time as our property. If this is the case, or if the negihbour accepts that the wall is shared, what liability does my neighbour have for rebuilding it. Does he have to rebuild along the exact same boundary, does it need to be a wall of similar materials, to a similar height etc? How would this be achieved if the tree has breached the boundary line, and now straddles both gardens? He has never claimed complete ownership of the wall and I doubt he will do so.

3.Answer NO and No


So, if the council protects it with a TPO it assumes no additional responsibility for the tree, and all such responsibility therefore remains with my neighbour? That is not what I was told by the lcoal tree officer, when I mooted the idea with him. He stated that the council when deciding whether or not to protect a tree will, in the current climate of osterity, have regard to the liability this exposes them to. If they consider that this liablility exceeds the value the tree offers to the conservation area, they will often decide that it is not worth protecting. At the time, the principal liability was the wall it was leaning upon at the time. I have a file note from his last visit which makes this pretty clear, but perhaps I misunderstood him.

You mention applications in earlier posts which implies the tree is protected by TPO, then in this post you say
If the council were to protect the tree
So is it protected or not?


The tree is not protected by a TPO - I don't believe that I have suggested that it is, and am sorry if I gave that impression. It is in a conservation area, which I understand confers upon it some additional protection. Previous applications were for pruning, which are required for all trees within a conservation area.

Arborlad - no the wall has never been rebuilt as far as the memories of those in the area extend.

Jules
Last edited by Trailerman on Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby Trailerman » Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:56 pm

Treeman - you clearly have extremely extensive knowledge of this area of the law.

I've tried to set out the situation as carefully and clearly as possible. The only question that I can really ask you is: given what you now know, what would you do or advise in this situation? If you can't answer that on a publiuc forum, can I perhaps retain you to advise?

Regards

Jules
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby arborlad » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:13 pm

Trailerman wrote:Here's a photo. Plenty more available:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ltxun9kdyi5v3 ... 9Small.jpg



Other photos may indicate otherwise, but from that one, it is hard to see that the tree, which probably appeared as a self-set in the early 70's, is anything more than a contributory factor in the collapse of the wall. It is very poor construction, too many stretchers not enough headers incorporated into the build, the presence of the hydrangea (and trellis?) on your side will have had a considerable sail effect on a wall that was reaching the end of it's life. If you're in a conservation area, the wall may have to be rebuilt, as was, it does seem to have had some copings replaced which aren't original.

Does the wall adjoin the house, if you are terraced, how does it align with the party wall?
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby Trailerman » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:28 pm

Hi Arborlad.

I can assure you that the tree was the primary if not the only factor in the collapse of the wall. I can provide a photographic timeline of the movement of the wall, all of which centres around the point at which the trunk rests upon the wall.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8y80u7bym5ju1 ... 282%29.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/osl55la8s8zwq ... 282%29.jpg

Here are a couple post the collapse of the wall which perhaps indicate the line of the wall, and the position of the tree. Short of defying the laws of physics, the brick wall was never going to remain vertical with the tree where it is. I will try and find some older photos, which I will no doubt need for my application to fell anyway.

Thanks for your input.

Jules

SORRY - THOSE PHOTOS NEED ROTATING, GIVE ME A MINUTE ...
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby Trailerman » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:31 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fxpwhccif8d5if/DSC00921.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f5ojio7aqanuuau/DSC00923.jpg


Looks like dropbox rotates them back to landscape, but you should get the idea.
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:45 am

Treeman wrote:Staying with this example

Each party is entitled to use their land as they see fit (within the bounds of law)

If I build a wall on my boundary that's a perfectly lawful and acceptable thing to do. If your skanky tree interferes with my lovely wall which is good and lawful you have to stop that or I have redress in law.

To coin a phrase...........Get ooooorf moi land............


Hi Treeman,

Staying with my questions:
First knowledge of any damage caused by a new tree planted close to the original wall is the wall collapsing - this obviously means no further damage to the wall can be sustained. No redress?
First knowledge of any damage caused by the original tree is a crack in the new wall soon after build close to the tree. Redress for all further damage of doomed wall?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby ukmicky » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:23 am

MacadamB53 wrote:
Treeman wrote:Staying with this example

Each party is entitled to use their land as they see fit (within the bounds of law)

If I build a wall on my boundary that's a perfectly lawful and acceptable thing to do. If your skanky tree interferes with my lovely wall which is good and lawful you have to stop that or I have redress in law.

To coin a phrase...........Get ooooorf moi land............


Hi Treeman,

Staying with my questions:
First knowledge of any damage caused by a new tree planted close to the original wall is the wall collapsing - this obviously means no further damage to the wall can be sustained. No redress?
First knowledge of any damage caused by the original tree is a crack in the new wall soon after build close to the tree. Redress for all further damage of doomed wall?

Kind regards, Mac

Would depend

I have seen a number of walls that have cracked within a few years of the build due to incorrect ground preperation, inadequate foundations or shody laying of the bricks.

With a new wall the quality of the build will automatically beecome a suspect should a crack appear.

So the new wall owner will need to prove the wall was built correctly and prove the tree was to blame and that nothing else contributed to the walls demise .

A court does not have to find totally in favour of one party or the other when awarding damages . They can look at other factors other than the tree and if they find that other things could have contributed to its demise reduce any damages payable.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:54 am

Hi ukmicky,

Thanks for the reply and I think I get the point about damages.

What are your thoughts on my original point to the OP:

if it is agreed the tree caused the wall to collapse then it must surely boil down to which came first -
If the wall was built with the tree already there then the tree owner cannot be held responsible.
If the wall came first though, the neighbour should pay up.


I know this is a very simplistic way of summarising things, but am I completely off track?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby Treeman » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:23 am

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi ukmicky,

Thanks for the reply and I think I get the point about damages.

What are your thoughts on my original point to the OP:

if it is agreed the tree caused the wall to collapse then it must surely boil down to which came first -
If the wall was built with the tree already there then the tree owner cannot be held responsible.
If the wall came first though, the neighbour should pay up.


I know this is a very simplistic way of summarising things, but am I completely off track?

Kind regards, Mac



And therein lies the problem
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:48 pm

Trailerman (the OP) wrote:Treeman - you clearly have extremely extensive knowledge of this area of the law.

I've tried to set out the situation as carefully and clearly as possible. The only question that I can really ask you is: given what you now know, what would you do or advise in this situation?

Treeman wrote:

nothingtodowithme wrote:I am inclined to agree with treeman; which is good sound advice for the op.

Hi nothingtodowithme,

I think the OP may be expecting more from Treeman.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby Treeman » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:27 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
Trailerman (the OP) wrote:Treeman - you clearly have extremely extensive knowledge of this area of the law.

I've tried to set out the situation as carefully and clearly as possible. The only question that I can really ask you is: given what you now know, what would you do or advise in this situation?

Treeman wrote:

nothingtodowithme wrote:I am inclined to agree with treeman; which is good sound advice for the op.

Hi nothingtodowithme,

I think the OP may be expecting more from Treeman.

Kind regards, Mac


If I could just get to answer them for all the derails

Oh and I think that reference was to a post further up
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:34 pm

Treeman wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:
Trailerman (the OP) wrote:Treeman - you clearly have extremely extensive knowledge of this area of the law.

I've tried to set out the situation as carefully and clearly as possible. The only question that I can really ask you is: given what you now know, what would you do or advise in this situation?

Treeman wrote:

nothingtodowithme wrote:I am inclined to agree with treeman; which is good sound advice for the op.

Hi nothingtodowithme,

I think the OP may be expecting more from Treeman.

Kind regards, Mac


If I could just get to answer them for all the derails

Oh and I think that reference was to a post further up

Sorry :oops:
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby arborlad » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:04 pm

Trailerman wrote:Hi Arborlad.

I can assure you that the tree was the primary if not the only factor in the collapse of the wall. I can provide a photographic timeline of the movement of the wall, all of which centres around the point at which the trunk rests upon the wall.
...



I would like to wholeheartedly agree with you, but two things stop me.

1. There is still some wall standing to the left of the tree.

2. The centre and major part of the collapse is some distance away from the tree, more in line with your Hydrangea than the tree.
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Re: Neighbour's tree just destroyed our boundary wall....

Postby FrTed » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:01 pm

arborlad wrote:
Trailerman wrote:Hi Arborlad.

I can assure you that the tree was the primary if not the only factor in the collapse of the wall. I can provide a photographic timeline of the movement of the wall, all of which centres around the point at which the trunk rests upon the wall.
...



I would like to wholeheartedly agree with you, but two things stop me.

1. There is still some wall standing to the left of the tree.

2. The centre and major part of the collapse is some distance away from the tree, more in line with your Hydrangea than the tree.

Which was one of the things that struck me when I looked at the photograph.

Im not doubting that the tree has been a contributory factor to the demise of the wall, but feel that there are other factors to take into account as well - and an insurance loss adjuster will probably say the same thing.
Have you contacted your / his house insurance company to discuss the matter? Have you discussed this with your neighbour?
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