Had tree professionally cut but did not know it had a TPO

Re: Had tree professionally cut but did not know it had a TP

Postby MacadamB53 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:20 am

nothingtodowithme wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:Hi TO,

You didn't comment on:

Check all the detail to see if conspiracy or cockup gives you an out. May not, but it may muddy the water enough to undermine the idea of a prosecution.

**Never** rely on the assumed competence of Councils.


Mischievous regards, Mac

Do you need reassurance as regard these points? and will it help the op, I think not.

Hi nothingtodowithme,

Of course I don't - I was having a laugh (failed miserably though :().
I was hoping TO might have seen the funny side, given their field of expertise, but heyho.

Embarrassed regards, Mac
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Re: Had tree professionally cut but did not know it had a TP

Postby ferdinand2000 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:41 pm

I think I hardly need to comment further. It's a simple point.

OP is worried about being prosecuted. Councils (indeed all procedure driven organisations) often make mistakes, and often railroad their enforcements through regardless of their mistakes, or that enforcement may itself be reckless.

In these circs it is worth the effort checking the detail rigorously.

"We probably got it right" is what they will usually say, even if it is covering a mistake. And usually get away with it because questioning council decisions is ultimately so difficult (ie a one year or more process before you get to someone truly independent or a hell of a lot of court fees).

My favourite Council Cockups are some of the parking ones from when I lived in Camden - the attempt to relentlessly enforce a parking ticket on a tractor that lived in a field in Dorset for one, and the cars ticketed where the yellow lines had been painted after they parked.

But there is also at the moment Ipswich who are paying back a lot of landlord licensing fees because they subsequently applied the funds unlawfully.

My own Council goes for belt and braces now. I wonder if they lost a TPO for "not served properly". The TPO I mentioned before was served on me by at least 5 different routes.

Ferdinand
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Re: Had tree professionally cut but did not know it had a TP

Postby ferdinand2000 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:16 pm

... but I will, anyway. My sole point was to check all the detail - just in case.

TO wrote:Not sure now brilliant this is to be honest.
ferdinand2000 wrote:Does this TPO exist and is it actually correct
The OP, their neighbour and the Council think it exists so its a reasonable assumption that it does. Is it correct. What if you think it isn't, how are you going to challenge it bearing in mind there's no mechanism to do so.


Yes there is.

Ultimately it's challengeable via Judicial Review or (maybe - I haven't asked a lawyer) High Court. Also obviously the internal complaints procedure can lead to a finding of Unjust Treatment. It happens.

One was overturned last week, where the Council lost a prosecution due to not serving the original TPO properly. ie Expensive cockup. This prosecution relates to ringbarking oaks so it looks to be a shame that they lost.
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey- ... ee-6782223

Also, in 2004 Rutland Council lost a legal challenge where they couldn't show adequate grounds t justify the the original imposition of a TPO. That may be affected by the 2012 law changes, of course.
http://www.lgcplus.com/tree-preservatio ... 22.article

ferdinand2000 wrote:Did your tree man check for a TPO and was told "no TPO" by the Council? Did the Council record the call?

Irrelevant works were carried out to the tree without consent. And we have the answer earlier in the thread
starwarsclark wrote:I wonder where the responsibility lies? Us.............or the company that cut the tree as they did not check whether there was a TPO?
.

Fair enough, on that point.

ferdinand2000 wrote:Do you have a copy?To what end?

To check whether there was a correct TPO.

ferdinand2000 wrote:Does the map the Council give to people show a TPO. What map? The street map of the town center? Most maps don't show TPO's do they.


The map of TPOs :D .

My council give me a copy of a printed-out copy of the "TPO layer" of their Geographical Info System on request at the counter for any specified area - I think that is what it is. I always check myself before having tree-works done. If it is critical for me, I specify a largish area to avoid a Tree Officer appearing out of a hole in the ground bearing an Emergency TPO.

I have no idea how many Councils can get maps out of their electronic TPO databases, since it wasn't on the list of 800 or so services that were mandated to be available online in all areas when Prezza was in full flood. Many can, however.

In the case of the OP, in addition to looking for cockups, once I was convinced that the TPO existed, I'd be buttering up the officers concerned with a formal proposal to repair the damage by putting in a mature tree.

There's a lot of grey area in what decision they will make. In my area once you've had a few conversations you can even tell roughly what you will be allowed to do to a TPO tree based on the name of the Tree Officer - and the answers are different.

That's not casting aspersions - just noting that planning is grey.

Ferdinand
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Re: Had tree professionally cut but did not know it had a TP

Postby TO » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:48 pm

Hi

ferdinand2000 wrote:TO wrote:
Not sure now brilliant this is to be honest.

ferdinand2000 wrote:
Does this TPO exist and is it actually correctThe OP, their neighbour and the Council think it exists so its a reasonable assumption that it does. Is it correct. What if you think it isn't, how are you going to challenge it bearing in mind there's no mechanism to do so.

Yes there is.

Ultimately it's challengeable via Judicial Review or (maybe - I haven't asked a lawyer) High Court. Also obviously the internal complaints procedure can lead to a finding of Unjust Treatment. It happens.


I'm not sure about the lgcplus item as I can't access it but I suspect, as with the Surrey item, they were new TPO's that had just been confirmed. You have a six week period after confirmation to make a challenge in the High Court. Thereafter there is no mechanism to challenge the validity of a TPO. The thread is not about new TPO's but an existing one, at least that's how I read it.

Abridged version of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 s284 Validity of .......certain orders, [which includes TPO's], ......Except in so far as may be provided by this Part, [Application for consent to work on TPO trees] shall not be questioned in any legal proceedings whatsoever.

My words in brackets.

TO
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Re: Had tree professionally cut but did not know it had a TP

Postby ukmicky » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:40 pm

]
Oddly; a purchaser of an estate will be bound by any charge which exists, even if it has not been registered


You are getting into a very complcated area that is not straight forward and is a subject that hurts my head. You are right sort of because land can have a charge burdening it even if its not registered but that is not the case for every case.

Going back a few hundred years the law has changed many times but many of those changes have only affected charges that came about after the law was changed. Hundreds of years ago all that was required was a paper deed and many of those charges can still burden land if the charge is not registered.

It all depends on the year and date when the charge first burdened the property as to what is required for the estate to be burdened .
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
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Re: Had tree professionally cut but did not know it had a TP

Postby arborlad » Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:24 am

arborlad

smile...it confuses people
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