TP1 differers to Title Plan

TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby dannymassive » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:13 am

Ladies & Gentlemen,
I have searched every nook and cranny on the internet for a thread somewhere or information on a website to help me with my current situation. I purchased my new home from a developer late last year and have since recieved my title deeds from my solicitor. My title deeds are exactly the same as the transfer plan that we signed along with the developer to confirm what we were to be purchasing. So far, so good...... Except that upon closer inspection the developer has made a mistake in that the have "block paved" an area of my front garden and included it within my neigbours boundary. I have included a copy of my title plan which shows my boundary marked red - I have put a yellow band around the area that had been paved to create a very wide pathway within my neighbours boundary an my own. I have written to the developer who has now come back to me appologising for the error and has said that they will remove the block paved area marked yellow on the plan and reinstate it as my garden as it should have been initially. Perfect I thought. That is, until they wrote to my neighbour and advised him of their error and their plans to reinstate my garden. The response was that he believed that the land within the yellow area was included in his TP1 transfer document. Now, my title deed clearly shows that the area is within my boundary and it is exactly the same as my transfer document. The developer has now contacted their solicitors to obtain a copy of the transfer document to check what has been conveyed. They say that they assume that it will come back with the boundaries in the same position as my TP1 and Title Plan - but my question is, what if my neighbours transfer document differs?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
dannymassive
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:59 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby dannymassive » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:48 am

I forgot to add, my transfer form and title plan also correspond with the developers plans and planing permission plans.
dannymassive
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:59 pm

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby gardenlaw » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:50 am

Can you look on HM Land Registry site and buy a copy of your neighbours Title Plan? If it has not yet been registered then wait for the developer to get the plan from the solicitor. Logic says it will match the deveopment plan so problem solved as soon as the block paving is removed. If it does not match then it is for the developer to sort out.
gardenlaw
Site Admin
 
Posts: 809
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:40 pm
Location: Halifax

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby arborlad » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:11 am

dannymassive wrote:- I have put a yellow band around the area that had been paved to create a very wide pathway within my neighbours boundary an my own.


If you follow the top yellow line to the right, what do you meet, is there any fence or path edging to define your land?

If you both derive benefit from the block paved area, it may not be necessary to remove it, a brick trim of different colour may be sufficient to define your land.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7387
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby dannymassive » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:08 pm

gardenlaw wrote:Can you look on HM Land Registry site and buy a copy of your neighbours Title Plan? If it has not yet been registered then wait for the developer to get the paln from the solicitor. Logic says it will match the deveopment plan so problem solved as soon as the block paving is removed. If it does not match then it is for the developer to sort out.


Gardenlaw, I have indeed purchased my neighbours title plan and it is indeed identical to mine. The problem lies in that his TP1 transfer form differs from his Title Paln and mine. His title plan is also identical to the conveyance plans - however his TP1 transfer form is completely different to any plan that has ever been made, including the developers plans, in that his transfer plan includes the land within my title that I have marked yellow.

arborlad wrote:If you follow the top yellow line to the right, what do you meet, is there any fence or path edging to define your land?

If you both derive benefit from the block paved area, it may not be necessary to remove it, a brick trim of different colour may be sufficient to define your land.


There is nothing physicaly there to define my land other than that outside the yellow area is block paving and my garden is "bark wood" and plants.

I do not gain any benefit from the block paving being in place - infact quite the opposite. My garden should be 3m wide (max) at the top of the plan whereas it is now 1.8m wide (max). I am on a very small plot compaired to the other plots so the extra front garden would make a big difference for me.
dannymassive
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:59 pm

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby despair » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:17 pm

Clearly the developer is the one who has to sort this whole mess out in your favour
despair
 
Posts: 16044
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:07 am

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby gardenlaw » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:16 pm

I do not know why the plan on the TP1 is different to all the other plans. Clearly HM Land Registry has not registered it from that plan. I have no experience of this but the developer must have an agreed Estate Plan with HMLR . Please read this Guide http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/professi ... guide-41s2
gardenlaw
Site Admin
 
Posts: 809
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:40 pm
Location: Halifax

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby dannymassive » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:38 pm

despair wrote:Clearly the developer is the one who has to sort this whole mess out in your favour


Is this really the case though? I mean, will it work in my favour? As far as I and the developer are concerned at present, I am the legal owner of said land.

gardenlaw wrote:I do not know why the plan on the TP1 is different to all the other plans. Clearly HM Land Registry has not registered it from that plan. I have no experience of this but the developer must have an agreed Estate Plan with HMLR.....


I am unsure as to if the developer had an agreed estate plan as it is a small development of just 14 houses. I agree that HMLR have registered the land correctly on both of our title deeds, but am worried that my neighbours TP1 transfer form is going to cause me problems here. I don't want to loose my front garden.

However, should it not be between my neighbour and the developer to sort this out? The developer had agreed with me to reinstate the land back to a garden for me and this has now thrown a spanner in the works so to speak.
dannymassive
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:59 pm

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby COGGY » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:19 pm

You could write a polite but firm letter to the developer, asking when this will be sorted out, in accordance with his promise. Send the letter by recorded delivery and keep a copy of the signed receipt.
COGGY
 
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:58 pm

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby arborlad » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:58 pm

dannymassive wrote:
I do not gain any benefit from the block paving being in place -.



......................so a brick trim will be of no use then.............
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7387
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby dannymassive » Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:59 am

arborlad wrote:..............so a brick trim will be of no use then.............


Indeed not. With the block paving in place it renders the land useless to me. Also, with this block paving in place my neighbour has now been using this strip of land to park their car on. So they are parking effectively on my front garden!
dannymassive
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:59 pm

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby kipper » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:14 am

When you bought the house did you believe that part of the blocked paved area to be included in your title?

You say the garden area of the house is relatively small but, as the area adjacent to the blocked paved area is bark chippings and plants would you really get a great deal of benefit from incorporating part of this block paved area?
kipper
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby arborlad » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:54 am

I think this: - either whole, or parts of, will be relevant here.



Conveyancer wrote:First, I have to express surprise that the same piece of freehold land (I assume that is what we are talking about) is registered under two different titles. We are talking about more than simply the red lines on the plans overlapping aren't we?

If that is the case, the following will need to have happened:

1. The developer will need to have got the plans wrong. This is entirely possible, particularly if it was a small development and the plans for each property were prepared at different times.

2. The developer's conveyancer will have failed to spot the problem. Again entirely possible.

3. Before completing the matter the second buyer's solicitor will have made a search at HM Land Registry. This involves sending a plan with the search. If part of the land shown on the plan had already been sold HMLR will have disclosed this on the search result and the buyer's conveyancer would have been alerted to a problem. It is just possible that HMLR made a mistake and did not spot the overlap.

4. Following completion, the buyer's conveyancer will have sent the transfer to HMLR for registration. It is again just possible that the overlap was not noticed, but the chances of it happening twice have to be fairly remote. HMLR are very careful with their mapping.

5. HMLR keep a general map, updated every time a new title is created, which shows all registered land and the title numbers allocated and it ought not to be possible for the same piece of freehold land to be shown as registered under two different title numbers. It is of course possible that the second property is not shown correctly on the general map.

That this whole sequence of events occurred is possible, but highly unlikely.

If it is indeed the case that the same land is registered twice then I think it has to be the case that whoever was registered first takes priority. However, if the boundary as shown on his title does not in fact match what he in fact thought he was buying (i.e. he got more than he bargained for) the other owner may (and I emphasise "may") have a case for the boundaries of both titles to be adjusted accordingly.

The above is by way of general comment and assumes that the title to each property was carved out of the same larger title, though some points will apply even if that is not the case.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7387
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby dannymassive » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:37 am

kipper wrote:When you bought the house did you believe that part of the blocked paved area to be included in your title?

You say the garden area of the house is relatively small but, as the area adjacent to the blocked paved area is bark chippings and plants would you really get a great deal of benefit from incorporating part of this block paved area?


Yes, it was included with my TP1 that we signed when we bought the house. The developer showed us the plans that we were purchasing the house from and this plan also included this land.

The bark chipping area is incorporated within my front garden area already. Going from the 1.8m (max) that I currently have use of to the 3m (max) would make a huge difference to the usability of the front garden. With the extra space I would be able to have a small patio or turfed area, for example.

arborlad wrote:I think this: - either whole, or parts of, will be relevant here.


Conveyancer wrote:First, I have to express surprise that the same piece of freehold land (I assume that is what we are talking about) is registered under two different titles. We are talking about more than simply the red lines on the plans overlapping aren't we?..............


Yes and No to this one. Having already read that previous post I am unsure, as in my case the Title Plans do not both incorporate this land, only my title plan does. The land does not overlap in any way on any title plan, just on my neighbours TP1 transfer form.
dannymassive
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:59 pm

Re: TP1 differers to Title Plan

Postby kipper » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:42 pm

dannymassive wrote:
kipper wrote:When you bought the house did you believe that part of the blocked paved area to be included in your title?

You say the garden area of the house is relatively small but, as the area adjacent to the blocked paved area is bark chippings and plants would you really get a great deal of benefit from incorporating part of this block paved area?


Yes, it was included with my TP1 that we signed when we bought the house. The developer showed us the plans that we were purchasing the house from and this plan also included this land.

The bark chipping area is incorporated within my front garden area already. Going from the 1.8m (max) that I currently have use of to the 3m (max) would make a huge difference to the usability of the front garden. With the extra space I would be able to have a small patio or turfed area, for example.


Did you question why the plan differed from what you saw on the ground in that the area had been block paved in continuation with the neighbour's garden with no obvious boundary and no obvious benefit to you?

An extra 4ft at one end narrowing significantly at the other end does not, on the face of it, seem a great deal. Most people do not use their front gardens for patio areas, etc, although I appreciate this can depend on the layout of the rest of the gardens. Was just thinking whether compensation to lose this area of land would be worth exploring, especially if the neighbours can utilise it for parking - you may be able to command a decent price.
kipper
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:10 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
Next

Return to Boundaries

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests