Boundary and Private access

Boundary and Private access

Postby dubs » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:19 pm

We are pensioners in our late sixties and have lived at this house No 40 since it was built in 1973.
We now have a Boundary and Private Access Way dispute with our new neighbor at number 42, this has arisen since our new neighbor started with trivial issues about telephone lines passing through our tree, asking us to move our wrought iron rear garden gate and taking ownership and relocating the rear garden dividing fence.
Our neighbour is a single man in his late forties who changes property regularly for investment purposes and is very street wise and savvy on all things to do with property law and boundaries and has had 2 meter fencing erected around all sides of his rear garden except for the rear dividing fence on our property he wants to take ownership of.
All these issues culminated in the neighbour sending us a letter at the beginning of June this year with a copy of his Land Registry “Red line” Plan and instructed us to relocate the rear dividing fence off his land.
This I refused to do as this had been paid for and maintained by us since the house was purchased in 1973 and was in line with the existing rear fence dividing line.
From the Land Registry Plan our neighbour posted and the Plan we downloaded for our property we then realized that our boundary ran in line with our neighbor’s detached house property brickwork and therefore included the concrete dividing pathway and front garden area between both properties, I have attached copies of both plans.
I then wrote to our neighbour and informed him of our findings and asked him to remove any items he had on the pathway and to remove the new rear garden gate that has access onto our pathway, he refused and stated a Boundary Survey was the only way to confirm the legal boundary line.
I contacted a RICs Surveyor and he emailed Mr Smith strongly advising that we share the costs of this survey and agree with his conclusions, he refused this, I then instructed the surveyor to carry out this boundary survey for us, this was carried out.
I now have a couple of questions that the survey has raised :-

• With us not aware of the dividing path being on our property until our neighbour posted his Land Registry Plan in June this year 14/05/2013 and access being available for all 3 owners of No 42 access since our house was built in 1973 are we within our rights to now stop access to No 42 as he has open and paved access to his own detached house rear garden via his own property, see attached marked up plan showing new build and pathways and the original Builders Development Plan.
Not sure if this has any relevance to this but we only purchased the Freehold land rights in 2008.

• Our neighbour has had a 1090mm high fence erected on the disputed front garden area last week 13/08/2013 that now according to our legal surveyed boundary is on our property, again I have had a low level 400mm dividing the same garden area for a number of years not knowing this was our property, can we ask him to remove this new fence off our property.

• Our neighbour also installed Block work Bricks cemented in line with our dividing path and his new 2 meter high rear garden fence again on what is now our property, can I ask him to remove these.

The above issues and legal property boundaries have only just been realized by us but with the previous owners from 1973 having access to this dividing pathway over this long period, do I have a right to stop this access as they have adequate and open access via their own property.

But again is the purchasing of the Freehold ownership of our land affect the access

Any advise is appreciated.
dubs

Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:15 pm
img011.jpg
40/42
img011.jpg (122.53 KiB) Viewed 3077 times
dubs
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:15 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby dubs » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:54 am

Absolutely brand new on this issue and forum, but was asked by previous for plan information, attempted to delete previous but unable to because of reply, unaware you can add to existing or maybe you are saying reply to post with plan, maybe.

The path referred to is the gap shown between property 40 and 42 from front to back boundaries, 42 shown on plan is the neighbours Land Registry “Red Line” general boundaries with 42 property a permanent “Feature” on his dividing boundary with our property (40) the additional information is the various additions built over the years with the concrete footpaths shown for both properties.

Hope that is clearer.
dubs
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:15 pm

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby despair » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:27 am

The OPs description of the problem is as clear as mud

LR Plan clearly shows a gap between house 42 and no 40

It clearly shows that 42 is built well up to his boundary

Unless theres other information the OP has not provided or I have misunderstood the situation
If 42 has now decided to install fencing on what is clearly your land and is demanding to move or relinquish land you have occupied and tended for over 10 years he is out of order
and I can see no reason why you cannot carefully remove and return his fences etc

Check very carefully all mortgages /insurances/credit cards/union memberships for Legal Expenses Cover and get an experience Land Solicitor to look at all documentation
despair
 
Posts: 16041
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:07 am

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby arsie » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:01 am

You only recently gaining the freehold makes no difference I think.

That seems fairly clear to me - the pathway between 40 and 42 is disputed, right? You thought for years it wasn't yours but now you think it might be and, judging from the red line in the plans posted, it looks like you might be right and hence your awakening and I can see why Mr Smith doesn't want a boundary survey. But boundaries from Land Registry plans are +/- one metre, I think they say. Boundaries are not simple or easy to determine and it depends on the lie of the land, features such as walls, fences, hedges, outhouses etc.

However many fences he has or hasn't concreted should not make the ownership dispute any different however if in the future someone sees these as boundary features that does not help your case. Have you got any old photos of how the land was previously demarcated before he put the fences up on what he sees as his land?

You are right he has adequate access to the back at the other side of his property from you. However this pathway which he would take away is your only way through to the back and it would arguably have been done that way when the properties were first built for rubbish bin access etc. I can't quite see from the plan if that is so for no 38. If you could get some statement or have a brochure from the original developer there might be something to help your case?

How to fight this dispute legally, there are others more expert in the law than I on here who can advise. But before you embark on a legal dispute, you should check to see if any of your insurance covers you for legal dispute expenses, as this sort of thing can get expensive and there are no guarantees of success.
arsie
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby arsie » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:24 am

pinkie wrote:It appears that the plan you have posted is the Land Registry plan for your neighbour and I see nothing on it that confirms your ownership of the path. Could you please post the plan for your own property?
I agree but the path down the side of no 40 is shown as outside the red line, so it is not part of no 42? I agree it would be helpful to see the current Land registry plans for no 40 for comparison.

pinkie wrote:It would be helpful too, if you could indicate the position of the disputed fences and how long they have been in position.
I agree. The OP's first post is not clear. You mention a wrought iron gate he (made you) take down?

If you have photos you could show the current situation or as it was before? You could annote these e.g. my iron gate etc.

@pinkie: there is an edit function - here I am editing - but only for a short time and only until another reply is added :|
arsie
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby arborlad » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:24 pm

arsie wrote:
@pinkie: there is an edit function - here I am editing - but only for a short time and only until another reply is added :|



There is an edit and delete function. The edit is time limited, seems to be around 40mins, but is available irrespective of subsequent posts. The delete is not time limited but is unavailable after one subsequent post.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7384
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby dubs » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:09 pm

See attached LR Plans for 40, 42 and original lease plan, no gates or fences have been moved by me or requests and restrictions until this is concluded and legal.

Lease plan.jpg
Original lease plan
Lease plan.jpg (246.85 KiB) Viewed 2987 times

42.jpg
House No 42
42.jpg (64.99 KiB) Viewed 2987 times

40.jpg
House No 40
40.jpg (102.19 KiB) Viewed 2987 times
dubs
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:15 pm

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby arsie » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:22 pm

Thanks dubs.

It seem perfectly clear where the 'disputed' boundary lies: co-linear with your neighbour no 42's house wall. I suggest you take legal advice and then write a firmly worded letter referring to these plans and asserting the position of the boundary and your responsibility for it (not shown by T markings on your plans but established over many years by your maintaining and renewing the fence.)

But do check that your insurance covers legal expenses, just in case.

There is a range of architectural treatment of estate development shown on the large scale plan and I see that your row of semi-detached houses, all with a side passage to the back like yours, do not have garages. Would I be correct that those are the garages en bloc round the corner? Also worth noting that it is very unlikely that the architect would have given you no back passage access (unlike all the other semis) when your neighbour's house being detached and on a larger plot has generous rear access already. Although I note across the road there is a pair of house with a shared passage but I think this may have been necessitated by the curve of the road 'squeezing' the space available. Not so with no 42.
arsie
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby dubs » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:27 pm

Previous plan with front and rear disputed fences and gates shown.
[img]
img017.jpg
[/img]
Attachments
img017.jpg
Fences and Gates
img017.jpg (139.49 KiB) Viewed 2954 times
dubs
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:15 pm

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby arsie » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:51 pm

We are now getting something it is possible to understand. We can see the fences and gates and plans. Pinkie asked for dates. This is quite important I think, in order to establish whether rights of way (called easements) may have been established by long use, unchallenged. Since when, approximately, has/have:

1) your rear fence stood there?
2) your rear gate labelled no 40 been in existence?
3) the occupants of no 42 had the benefit of a gate onto and the use of 'your' path?
4) his fence by the path at the front, been in place (also it it not clear exactly where this fence is)?

As I have said, I don't think the ownership of the land can be disputed based on the plans you provided, though the gentleman at no 42 is trying it on. It is clearly your path and your land.

It could be, by prescription (being allowed to continue unchallenged and without you objecting, for 20 years) the occupants of no 42 have established rights of way along your path and through the side gate into no 42.
arsie
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby dubs » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:05 pm

1) your rear fence stood there? (1973)
2) your rear gate labelled no 40 been in existence? (1973)
3) the occupants of no 42 had the benefit of a gate onto and the use of 'your' path? (1973)
4) his fence by the path at the front, been in place (also it it not clear exactly where this fence is)? (14/05/2013, fence center of gap or path between properties)
dubs
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:15 pm

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby arsie » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:31 pm

Hello dubs.

I think, from your answers numbered 1), 2) and 3), the occupants of no 42 have established, by prescription, an easement to use your path. Unless you objected by 1993 or earlier i.e. within 20 years of this usage. I am afraid, from what you say, they have established the right to use that access across your land :( But I don't think this is hugely bad because it is what you have grown accustomed to live with.

But, as I said previously, from the plans I think the land of the passage way is yours as regards ownership. It may not be easy to establish and consolidate this, in view of the neighbour's aggressive attitude and actions ...

His fence 4): unless it is on his side of the path, it is on your land and you can remove it, carefully, causing as little damage as possible, and place it on his land as it is his property.

He has no right whatsover to force you to remove your rear fence or gate.

All in my humble opinion as a layman.

I await the experts ...
arsie
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby dubs » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:07 pm

It could be, by prescription (being allowed to continue unchallenged and without you objecting, for 20 years) the occupants of no 42 have established rights of way along your path and through the side gate into no 42.

Can that be claimed if we just purchased our Freehold from lease for the land in 2008, I understand Perscription Right of Way has to be Freehold to Freehold for 12 years plus.
dubs
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:15 pm

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby arsie » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:35 pm

Dubs, as far as I am aware - and I am just a punter - prescriptive rights go with the land. The fact that you gained ownership of the freehold recently doesn't alter the prescriptive rights acquired over the previous owner's freehold before you obtained the freehold in 2008. I would love for some expert to say I am wrong.
arsie
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: Boundary and Private access

Postby dubs » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:32 pm

"There is a range of architectural treatment of estate development shown on the large scale plan and I see that your row of semi-detached houses, all with a side passage to the back like yours, do not have garages. Would I be correct that those are the garages en bloc round the corner? Also worth noting that it is very unlikely that the architect would have given you no back passage access (unlike all the other semis) when your neighbour's house being detached and on a larger plot has generous rear access already. Although I note across the road there is a pair of house with a shared passage but I think this may have been necessitated by the curve of the road 'squeezing' the space available. Not so with no 42."

Our garages on the Semi-Detached and Detached are built onto the side of our properties with drive ways, the Semi-detached and Bungalows across the road do have dual access pathway to their rear gardens as this is the only route.
dubs
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:15 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
Next

Return to Boundaries

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest