How To Establish Boundary?

How To Establish Boundary?

Postby ParallelLines » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:12 am

I am in a 1960’s detatched house and share an open boundary with my neighbour.

My deed’s have no plot measurements on and the boundary is drawn from concrete posts, some of which are buried in the front area. However the posts start about half way down our house.

We are not in dispute yet but my neighbour and myself have a difference of opinion as to how the boundary is defined. My neighbour believes it is from the land registry plan, which shows the boundary to be in a parallel line. Using that he has taken a line from the wall of my house to the boundary post and then run it down in a straight line to the road. This would mean he owns nearly a metre of our front garden and worringly it also puts our guttering at the front of the house only a few cm's from the boundary line due to the house being built on an angle. Before anything else is considered I find it hard to believe a 1960's house could be built with a roof so close to a boundary line.

My understanding is that boundaries are defined by what is stated in the deeds and what is physically on the ground. The neighbouring house is a semi and their original deeds have a plot measurement from the house they are joined with to the end of their plot. So my view is the boundary runs from that end point of their plot to the boundary post. On this basis the boundary would be tapering and my roof would be a lot more clearly inside my boundary.

Any guidance would be appreciated.
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby ParallelLines » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:16 am

As luck would have it I have had a boundary dispute on the other side. This was an odd one because it was over a drive laid to bricks so the boundary posts had been sliced off. Because of the angles of house and road it wasn’t easy to detect with the naked eye but it turned out there was a tapering slither that was on my neighbours land. And when they got wind we might be leaving they launched a boundary dispute.

We have been here eight years and the drive was laid over twenty years previously. At the time I wanted to go to court and defend it somehow, I was thinking adverse possession but then I read adverse possession is hard to prove. At this time I knew very little about boundary law and I ended up asking a guy I knew who was a Surveyor for advice. He came and looked at it and advised us not to fight it and to settle, which we did. So we ended up buying the slither of drive and the boundary was re-drawn.

I am still annoyed about this though as we were an innocent party. Am I right in thinking we could recover our money from the previous owner by claiming misrepresentation? However it would be an innocent misrepresentation as I know they bought it in the same state.
I don’t think it is right that people can launch boundary disputes on you when they get wind you are selling. To me it is bordering on blackmail.

I am thinking of writing to my MP about this point and was wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience?
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby ParallelLines » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:25 am

On my current problem the neighbours have refused to 'determine the boundary' or even talk to a Surveyor at present. When I asked them about determining the boundary they showed me their original deeds with their plot measurement on so I feel it no longer needs to be determined now. It's very hard to get them to do anything as they are convinced they can rely on the LR plan, which I shall post up.
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby Rosenberg » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:31 am

Hello ParallelLines,

Could you post a plan as I am having difficulty understanding where the boundary posts are.

With regard to your second post, I would have thought that if the edge of your driveway had obviously marked the boundary when ypu and your neighbours bought your houses, your current neighbours would not really have had a case to get you to move the boundary or purchase the land. Was the discrepancy more than about a metre?

Land registry plans are, I understand, supposed to be accurate to only about 1 metre.
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby ParallelLines » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:34 am

Image


This is the Land Registry plan and as you can see the boundary is parallel. However on the LR site it clearly says these plans are not to scale or even all that accurate.

The problem is my neighbour is convinced and doesn't feel the need to use a Surveyor even though I have offered him a RICS Surveyor for free.

Maybe he is right though but I thought deeds and boundary posts were the primary source.
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby ParallelLines » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:44 am

Rosenberg wrote:Hello ParallelLines,

Could you post a plan as I am having difficulty understanding where the boundary posts are.

With regard to your second post, I would have thought that if the edge of your driveway had obviously marked the boundary when ypu and your neighbours bought your houses, your current neighbours would not really have had a case to get you to move the boundary or purchase the land. Was the discrepancy more than about a metre?

Land registry plans are, I understand, supposed to be accurate to only about 1 metre.


Hi Rosenberg :).

There is only one boundary post left above ground, it is about halfway down my house which is the detatched one.

Re the second post it was again buried posts and the discrepancy was over a metre but because of angles and the drive being quite long it was not clear to the naked eye. I imagine what happened was that in the past a bit of money changed hands and the drive was altered only it was never registered at the LR what with houses being worth a lot less 30-40 years ago. It tapered but was about a metre at the end. Not easy to spot with so many posts missing.

Thanks for the input.
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:30 am

Hi ParallelLines,

My understanding is that boundaries are defined by what is stated in the deeds and what is physically on the ground

same here.

they showed me their original deeds with their plot measurement on

could these help? what do they show? (btw - imperial measurements can't be used for a "determined boundary" though)

Am I right in thinking we could recover our money from the previous owner by claiming misrepresentation? However it would be an innocent misrepresentation

I don't think so matey - the truth (IMHO) is you've been had.
you should have followed your gut instinct and refused to accept the boundary needed moving.
your predecessors cannot be held accountable for your inability to defend your property.
on what basis did your surveyor think the long-established layout wasn't sufficient enough "evidence" of where the boundary was?

All my non-expert, unqualified understanding.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby ParallelLines » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:49 am

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi ParallelLines,

My understanding is that boundaries are defined by what is stated in the deeds and what is physically on the ground

same here.

they showed me their original deeds with their plot measurement on

could these help? what do they show? (btw - imperial measurements can't be used for a "determined boundary" though)

Am I right in thinking we could recover our money from the previous owner by claiming misrepresentation? However it would be an innocent misrepresentation

I don't think so matey - the truth (IMHO) is you've been had.
you should have followed your gut instinct and refused to accept the boundary needed moving.
your predecessors cannot be held accountable for your inability to defend your property.
on what basis did your surveyor think the long-established layout wasn't sufficient enough "evidence" of where the boundary was?

All my non-expert, unqualified understanding.

Kind regards, Mac


Thanks Mac.

The plot measurement was x number of feet, I believe they said 29. Funny thing is they haven't given me the copy I asked them for :shock: . I downloaded the electronic deeds for £3.00 but sadly no measurements in these, think it said they were as per the original deeds.

On the other one the Surveyor advised that because the neighbour wanted his land back and even though it was only six inches for a lot of it, that would have meant we lost our side access on that side. Also the neighbour wanted to dig out all the brickwork and charge us even though he would not be able to do anything with it because the covenants say it is to be open plan. So we ended up buying it and re-drawing to keep our access.

I still think it is good advice as the sum paid was not big. I later read the Courts are not keen on adverse possession. Also it could have dragged on and the neighbour sadly had become a bit fixated over it. I did think it was a bit immoral though.

Not worried over the misrep idea because we are still friendly with the previous owners and it wasn't their fault. I was just wondering what the theory was in case it ever happens again.
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby ParallelLines » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:08 am

Just to put a bit more flesh on the bones, the area in question in this current issue is only a difference of say 1.5ft between a tapering and a parallel boundary. However were my neighbour to extend he could push accross that much further, so a parallel boundary would be a significant help to him due to the angle of his house.

It has occurred to me that if his plot measurement supported his argument he would be using that as his evidence rather than the Land Registry plan which forms the sole basis of his claim.
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:13 am

Hi PL,

I still think it is good advice as the sum paid was not big. I later read the Courts are not keen on adverse possession.

you effectively paid your neighbour for something that had already been agreed to due to the passage of time - the whereabouts of the boundary.

you had no need to claim it through AP and I don't understand how your title plans could have been amended to reflect a 9" shift.

All my non-expert, unqualified understanding.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:18 am

Hi lee,

the area in question in this current issue is only a difference of say 1.5ft

is that 1.5 sq foot in area or a wedge with a max depth of 1.5 foot?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby ParallelLines » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:52 am

Mac,

If the boundary is as I think then it's a tapering wedge. This puts their garage under a foot from the boundary at the closest point. If the boundary is parallel they would have about 2.5 feet between their garage and the boundary line. So they would have far better side access to their back garden if the boundary is parallel. If it is tapering they are technically trespassing when they bring a wheelie bin over.

Recently they started storing a lot of stuff in the disputed area. Luckily they have since moved it but it wouldn't be too funny if they took a big delivery of cement bags or bricks. Also I can't ask them to move it if they think it's their land, which is why I ended up asking them if they were interested in determining the boundary.
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:04 pm

Hi PL,

what is on the ground between your houses? (ie. what did the OS guy see that made him plot a line?)

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby Rosenberg » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:35 pm

ParallelLines wrote:Mac,

If the boundary is as I think then it's a tapering wedge. This puts their garage under a foot from the boundary at the closest point. If the boundary is parallel they would have about 2.5 feet between their garage and the boundary line. So they would have far better side access to their back garden if the boundary is parallel. If it is tapering they are technically trespassing when they bring a wheelie bin over.

Recently they started storing a lot of stuff in the disputed area. Luckily they have since moved it but it wouldn't be too funny if they took a big delivery of cement bags or bricks. Also I can't ask them to move it if they think it's their land, which is why I ended up asking them if they were interested in determining the boundary.

If you are only talking about a difference of one and a half feet, then I don't think the LR plan would be accurate enough to override other sources of evidence for the boundary position.
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Re: How To Establish Boundary?

Postby Roblewis » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:54 pm

You talk of buried part fence posts - these are almost certainly the devlopers especially if the barrier was a tensioned wire. If you can recover at least three of these including the one above ground, these then give you a very strong case for saying the stright line projected through all 3 post centre lines to meet the boundary lines at front and rear are the best intention of the developers. Short of this then a chartered land surveyor is the only way forward. I do not know your covenants and deeds wrt dwarf walls as some open plan developments permit them, if so then you can use the Party Wall Act Line of Junction Notice to identify and erect a junction wall abutting the boundary on your land. This is regardless of neighbour consent and they must allow your footings on their land if necessary. You only need a 10cm height, or less if you wish as long as it is above ground level.
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