We own our neighbours garden!?

We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:12 pm

My wife and I bought our property last September (2014) and when we compared the land registry title plan with our garden realised something was wrong. We asked the sellers about it and they said they knew the boundary wall was in the wrong position but had never done anything about it. We obtained out neighbor's title plan to check and it matched ours in that the actual boundary was some 6-9 metres further north than the boundary wall as it stood.

On completion of the purchase we went round to the neighbours and pointed this out to them and suggested they may have a claim to make against either the person they bought the property from or from their solicitor/conveyancer that dealt with the purchase. We didn't think at the time they seemed altogether surprised although they did say they knew nothing about it.

After several weeks and then months of stalling saying that his solicitor 'was looking into the matter' he eventually provided a report from a local engineering/surveying company entitled 'Determination of Boundary' which attached a copy of his title plan which was signed by the original owners of my property and the developer who built his house, it had a written dimension on the length of his plot of 29m whereas it scaled off at around 20/22m.

We then investigated a little further,
At first we thought that the previous owners of our property had sold off part of their large back garden as a building plot but on closer examination of the registry documents it wasn't as clear cut as this. The two plots were separately registerd and we can find no deeds or plans that identify the whole plot as one parcel of land although we are sure that at some point It was in single ownership.
Mr & Mrs T sold our property in February 2005 and then in November of that same year sold the plot of land to the rear to a developer who then built on it, the title plan produced by our neighbour which he claims shows 29m of land was sold is therefore signed by people who did not at that time own the adjoining land so we cannot see how this can be a valid document.
We have pointed all this out to our neighbour who is again stalling and saying that his 'legal team' is still looking into it.
We are now concerned that he is trying to drag things out until November then make a claim for adverse possession.
I have my own ideas about what I should do now but wondered if anyone on here had any advice?
Thanks in anticipation.
spennyroo
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:22 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby arsie » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:44 pm

Am I correct that what you want is to confirm (claim) your ownership of a strip of land some 6-9m wide beyond what you took to be your boundary wall?

If so and your neighbour seems likely to want to claim the land under adverse possession I would write to him outlining your position i.e. that you believe you own the land. Don't forget adverse possession needs to be uncontested and when/if application is made HMLR should contact those who may have an interest as a matter of course e.g. neighbours like yourselves.

I would also do some research at HMLR e.g. here
http://www.land-registry-documents.co.uk/information/land-boundary-disputes/

You/your neighbour could make a (joint) application for a boundary determination.
arsie
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby jdfi » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:08 pm

Write to him (recorded delivery), tell him it's your hand, tell him he has permission to use the land from now until 31st May 2015.

That will break his 10 year claim.
jdfi
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:39 pm

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby ukmicky » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:37 pm

jdfi wrote:Write to him (recorded delivery), tell him it's your hand, tell him he has permission to use the land from now until 31st May 2015.

That will break his 10 year claim.



I'm afraid not as they don't have to accept the permission plus.

Plus is coming in the next post
Last edited by ukmicky on Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
ukmicky
 
Posts: 4544
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:13 pm
Location: London

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:47 pm

Thanks for your interest and comments, do you know if I'm right in thinking that if I have a plan prepared showing the exact boundary and he agrees then the LR will record this as a determined boundary for a £90 fee, but if he won't agree I can still apply and LR will contact my neighbour and when he objects will refer the case to a tribunal? I would like to know what kind of costs may be involved and how and when these are invoked?
spennyroo
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:22 pm

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby ukmicky » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:04 pm

Not good news for you I am afraid

Even if this land was yours and there is no guarantee it was ,going by what you have said if I have read it correctly you are already out of time and the neighbour is free to claim it.


When Mr & Mrs T sold your property in February 2005 the land that the neighbours now own was in the ownership of their predecessors and their predecessors started the period of adverse possession .The law allows your neighbours to add their predecessors period of adverse possession to theirs. So if they were to they were entitled to claim the land back in February 2015.

On top of that the 3rd condition in Schedule 6 of the land registration act 2002 has a clause to cover situations with garden boundaries that means even if you were to object their claim would succeed .

The third condition is that—
(a)the land to which the application relates is adjacent to land belonging to the applicant,
(b)the exact line of the boundary between the two has not been determined under rules under section 60,
(c)for at least ten years of the period of adverse possession ending on the date of the application, the applicant (or any predecessor in title) reasonably believed that the land to which the application relates belonged to him, and
(d)the estate to which the application relates was registered more than one year prior to the date of the application.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/schedule/6

Even if you were to knock down the wall tomorrow and take back the land, they would still win it.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
ukmicky
 
Posts: 4544
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:13 pm
Location: London

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:49 am

Hi ukmicky

Just a couple of points, when Mr & Mrs T sold our land in Feb 2005 the disputed garden was not in the ownership of the neighbours predecessors, Mr & Mrs T still owned it, they did not sell it to the predecessors until November 2005.

I also note your comments about the third condition, I am sure I have read some case law that suggested this condition should only apply to situations where the amount of land in question is covered by the General Boundaries rule and where a transfer of land between titles is involved could not be invoked? Probably not the correct phraseology but do you know what I mean?!

Thanks for your help.
spennyroo
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:22 pm

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby span » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:21 am

What exactly outcome are you trying to achieve here? Gain possession of the land?
span
 
Posts: 1466
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:34 am

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:28 am

Yes we would like to take possession of the land that we think we bought.
spennyroo
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:22 pm

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby arborlad » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:03 am

spennyroo wrote: We asked the sellers about it and they said they knew the boundary wall was in the wrong position but had never done anything about it.



Is this a standalone boundary feature that has no other purpose or does it also do some retaining, etc.?

How does it line up with other parts of your property of uncontested ownership?
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7385
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby Collaborate » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:44 am

spennyroo wrote:Yes we would like to take possession of the land that we think we bought.


From your posts it seems that you were aware of a discrepancy between the plan and the actual border before you exchanged. Did you speak to your solicitor about it?
Collaborate
 
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:17 am

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:12 am

Hi spennyroo,

when Mr & Mrs T sold our land in Feb 2005 the disputed garden was not in the ownership of the neighbours predecessors, Mr & Mrs T still owned it, they did not sell it to the predecessors until November 2005.

I'm afraid you're getting yourself in a bit of a muddle...

Jan '05 - Mr & Mrs T own a large parcel of land
Feb '05 - Mr & Mrs T sell their house and garden but retain a sizeable plot
Feb '05 - Mr X buys a house and garden from Mr & Mrs T

at this point Mr X owns the disputed strip but Mr & Mrs T remain in possession (assuming the wall was in place at this time).

so, as ukmicky said, your neighbour and his predecessors (which includes Mr & Mrs T) may have been in adverse possession for over ten years already.

Kind regards, Mac
PS you're confused if you think "the third condition" is restricted - it can be a plot of ANY size.
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6032
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby span » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:42 am

Well done spenny. Very well done indeed. You've walked into a dispute with both eyes wide open. In fact, you've bought into the situation with the express desire to upset the status quo and pick a fight.
span
 
Posts: 1466
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:34 am

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:07 pm

Thank (most of) you for your helpful replies,

Arborlad - it is a standalone wall that serves no other purpose, it was a condition on the TR1 form dated November 2005 that ' a suitable brick and timber six foot high wall be built' by the developer.

McAdamb53 - I don't think Its me that's confused but maybe I didn't make it clear enough - in Jan 2005 Mr & Mrs T own two parcels of land that just happen to be next to each other, both have separate registrations along with deeds and plans, in February they sell one parcel (ours) and then in November they sell the other and a boundary wall is built in the wrong place.

Span - I fail to see the relevance of your post. Is this meant to be helpful to anyone?
spennyroo
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:22 pm

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:10 pm

Sorry collaborate

I didn't mean to leave you out! We did speak to our solicitor at the time of the sale and he told us that if we wanted to pursue the matter after completion he would be delighted to take money from us for doing so
spennyroo
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:22 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
Next

Return to Boundaries

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests