We own our neighbours garden!?

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby COGGY » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:20 am

Hi Spennyroo
I think the point being made to you is that you might become responsible for the neighbour's legal costs. You yourself may have only spent £100 but the neighbour has apparently spent much more. Look at it from their point of view. Of course they are going to fight for the land they were told was included in their purchase. Several people have tried to warn you of the dangers ahead. Maybe it is time to sit down and discuss this whole affair with a good boundary solicitor. There are members of the law profession who will take your money regardless of whether they believe you have a case. Have you researched to find a good boundary solicitor? If not it may be wise to do so urgently. Coggy
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:44 am

Hi ukmicky,

when it comes to damages, do you think the court will take into consideration the fact that the claimant's predecessors x2 have marketed and sold their property as if the land was not included? ie the price paid by the claimant already factored in the loss...

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby mr sheen » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:47 am

spennyroo wrote:I have been trying to resolve this matter for nearly 18 months now!!
S


Is that the dispute that didn't exist until you initiated it?

When, as part of the conveyancing process, your solicitor asked you to consider the plan and the deeds and if they correspond to the situation on the ground.....did you...
A) say yes
B) say no but I've decided to buy it anyway

Then at what point of your occupation did you initiate a formal dispute?
How have you tried to resolve the dispute? What proposal have you submitted as a reasonable solution to the matter?

As I read the info here, you have just submitted to LR to try to get land back. The neighbour, in response, has appointed Counsel who have advised that the matter needs to be resolved via a formal legal route which may involve court, and they are defending your claims.

The burden of proof is yours, the neighbour has possession and actually need do nothing.
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby Eliza » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:52 am

I'm with the consensus of opinion on this. You've been told that almost certainly the neighbour would win - courtesy of "estoppel".

I could understand if you had been told at the time you bought the house that a piece of land was yours and had, accordingly, paid a price that matched that and then found that, when you came to use that bit of your land, that it wasn't and the vendor deliberately lied to you and the bit of land concerned wasn't part of your property and never had been (having been in that position myself and I'm patiently biding my time hoping for an opportunity to "punish" the vendor for having done that).

However, it is a bit of land that you didn't think was yours at the time you bought the house and paid a price in accordance with that.

It is not clear, from what you say, whether the neighbour knows this is your bit of land and is being greedy and trying to hang onto it OR whether they genuinely thought it was theirs and it came as a shock to them to find that it isn't after all?

It's understandable that they are fighting hard if they honestly thought they truly owned this bit of land. It's not understandable that they are fighting for it if they know very well it isn't theirs.

If they really honestly thought its theirs - and so did you to start it = then I'd be inclined to leave it and forget fighting and shrug shoulders thinking "Darn idiot - for having put the wall in wrong place - but it is what it is".

If they have always known it isn't theirs, but decided to steal it anyway - then it does rather look as if they have got away with it (galling as that is).

Either way - I think you're on a loser if you continue with this. If they didn't know - then carry on as normal. If they did know - then just take the view "revenge is a dish best served cold" and deal with it some other way/some other time re punishing them for it.
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby arborlad » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:30 am

Eliza wrote:..... deliberately lied to you and the bit of land concerned wasn't part of your property and never had been (having been in that position myself and I'm patiently biding my time hoping for an opportunity to "punish" the vendor for having done that).



If you have a genuine and unresolved issue concerning the limits of your land, you should carefully choose one of your own multiple threads and continue it there.
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:57 pm

Hi spennyroo,

looking back through the information you've provided I thought of a question:

did Mr & Mrs T (or the survivor of the two) die in 2005?

if this was the case then the daughter, who became registered proprietor of property A was also the legal owner of property B and was the person who told the developer where to erect the wall (and was happy with where he built it).

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:22 pm

Hi Mac

No they are all alive and well, Mr & Mrs T have retired to France and their daughter and her partner live about 40 miles away from here, the interesting thing is that they have both given misleading addresses on their 'statements of truth' provided by my neighbours solicitor!

The daughter and her partner never owned the plot to the rear of us.

I'll reply more fully to all later on as my battery is about to die !!!!

Cheers
S
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:17 pm

Hi spennyroo,

it was just a thought - and could have been fatal to your claim.

can you please confirm something for me that I asked about way back near the start of this thread:

is there a boundary feature plotted on the OS maps used for either of the title plans or does the red line span across some open space? is that part of the red line dashed or solid?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby mr sheen » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:53 pm

So.....the plot thickens...the previous owners have given 'statements of truth' to support the neighbour's case....
Hole gets deeper and deeper......yet people just keep on digging regardless :roll:
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby arborlad » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:56 am

spennyroo wrote:The thing that has wound me up most is that the barrister has used the plans that I produced (drew) myself, as part of the boundary determination application, as part of his pleadings when my neighbours objection to the application was that 'the plans produced are innacurate and cannot be relied upon'

Does anyone know if I am within my rights to ask that they do not use my drawings in this way?




Probably not, if you were a self employed architect and produced a set of drawings for a house or extension, there may be some copyright issues.
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:20 pm

Mac

We have an aerial photo taken when there was our house and garden and just an allotment at the rear, the plots are separated by a timber fence and the position is possible to pinpoint exactly due to the concrete post and infill fence that still exists between ours and our next door neighbour to the east. This aligns with the layout of the plots on both ours and our neighbours title deeds and all the lines are solid red.

Cheers
S
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:47 pm

mr sheen wrote:
spennyroo wrote:I have been trying to resolve this matter for nearly 18 months now!!
S


Is that the dispute that didn't exist until you initiated it?

When, as part of the conveyancing process, your solicitor asked you to consider the plan and the deeds and if they correspond to the situation on the ground.....did you...
A) say yes
B) say no but I've decided to buy it anyway

Then at what point of your occupation did you initiate a formal dispute?
How have you tried to resolve the dispute? What proposal have you submitted as a reasonable solution to the matter?

As I read the info here, you have just submitted to LR to try to get land back. The neighbour, in response, has appointed Counsel who have advised that the matter needs to be resolved via a formal legal route which may involve court, and they are defending your claims.

The burden of proof is yours, the neighbour has possession and actually need do nothing.


When my solicitor showed us the title plans we immediately said the wall did not correspond to the position shown on the plans, we were advised that in the solicitors opinion we were buying what was shown on the title deeds and guaranteed by the Land Registry. Due to the specific circumstances we were in at the time we had little choice but to complete and try and sort things out afterwards, we actually went round to our neighbours two days after we moved in, we would have gone earlier but we were a bit busy, I suppose the formal dispute only became such when my neighbour objected to the LR application!!

I have offered to sell the land to my neighbour, rent it to him or use it as a garden myself.

The main reason for the boundary determination application was to stop any future claim of adverse possession and only came about after nine months of fruitless negotiations. I am quite sure my neighbour has been told that he stands little chance of success at the Tribunal but more so in the County Court and this is the route he has decided to go down.

Why is the burden of proof mine? I have title deeds that show the extent of my land, my neighbour has to prove that by some method other than the proscribed one laid down by an Act of Parliament a parcel of land was transfered to him?!?
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby jonahinoz » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:35 pm

Hi,

Personally, I am not in favour of what you are trying to do, but that is tempered by learning that you were aware of what you were buying before exchanging contracts, and it was not a case of finding there was a bonus there for the grabbing.

Similarly, your neighbour should have known what he was buying before exchanging contracts. Did he query this with his solicitor, and got advice that conflicted with what you were told? Or did he think he was onto a winner if he kept his mouth shut?

If you lose your case, and your neighbour keeps the land , will LR compensate you?

602
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby ukmicky » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:39 pm

[b]Why is the burden of proof mine? I have title deeds that show the extent of my land, my neighbour has to prove that by some method other than the proscribed one laid down by an Act of Parliament a parcel of land was transfered to him?!?b]
Because your title deeds only show a general boundary and they have a permanent feature ,the wall.

There is no legal limits to how much the general boundary on the title plan and the legal boundary on the ground can differ . The difference can be 1inch ,10 inches,10ft 100ft. There was a case where the difference equaled to 1.5 acres of land. The law says there is no limit to the quantity of land that can fall within the scope of a general boundary.

As its a general boundary the court will ask if that land was not sold to him why when he built the wall did the owner of the land object to where the wall was placed. This can also not be a mistake on the register requiring rectification and compensation from the land registry because any difference can be argued to fit with in the terms of the general boundaries rule so no matter who wins the land registry can refuse to chance the title plans.

if I were arguing his case I would argue

Its a general boundary and the difference between the plan and what's on the ground is due to the general boundaries rule.

If it was somehow found that the wall was built in the wrong place the fact that no one objected when it was first put up allows for an estoppel argument and after all this time making it unfair to force the me to hand back the land.
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby ukmicky » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:17 am

In the above post I missed the word 'not'. It should read

As its a general boundary the court will ask if that land was not sold to him why when he built the wall did the owner of the land not object to where the wall was placed

Also


Your neighbour could not agree to the having the boundary determined because you are not both in agreement as to where the boundary lies. He has a legal right to reject getting his boundaries determined just like I could if my neighbour wanted his determined and the process under section 60 can only be used if there is an agreement between all parties.

The boundary determination process is not for resolving boundary disputes so at some stage I reckon there should be an argument as to where the tribunal can go with this.


If your neighbour were to start his own proceedings the tribunal will bow out and let the court take over.
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