We own our neighbours garden!?

Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby Eliza » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:34 pm

I'm puzzled personally.

OP seems to have paid an amount for this house commensurate with the amount of garden he actually has (not taking into account the bit that may/may not be owned by the neighbour). Hence I don't quite understand why this situation arises - ie he seems to have paid for exactly what he has (ie no more/no less). Puzzled.... :?:
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby COGGY » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:08 pm

Yes Eliza that is how I also underestand it, i.e. that the OP bought and paid for the property offered for sale by the Vendor and now believes he can also take over part of the neighbour's property. His solicitor has apparently stated that he "Will take money from the OP to attempt to claim this extra land for him".
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby mr sheen » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:23 pm

spennyroo wrote: We did speak to our solicitor at the time of the sale and he told us that if we wanted to pursue the matter after completion he would be delighted to take money from us for doing so


The OP has just about summed up their own case!
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby mr sheen » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:37 pm

spennyroo wrote:Coincidently on the same day we were sent an email from the neighbours solicitor consisting of a letter informing us that if we didn't agree to transfer the disputed land to the neighbour for a sum of one pound they would be starting legal proceedings in the County Court and included pleadings drawn up by a barrister asking for a) the Boudary to be defined as being where the wall was built, or b) rectifying the transfer document to include the disputed land, or c) to rule that due to estoppel the boundary should be redefined and the register altered.


You need to see a legal professional, you may be out of your depth (as previously warned by others) before it even gets to a tribunal. My crystal ball suggests....The neighbours are going to frustrate the LR process by claiming that the case is going to court and hence cannot be decided by a tribunal.

Legal protocols will then need to be observed and you will need to present the legal basis of your claims or defence and make reasonable efforts to resolve before court.

The sellers are very relevant ....they will probably say the boundary was previously accepted by both parties .....because that is a fact since the sellers didn't dispute the boundary and sold it to you in its current position on the ground.

You need a realistic assessment of your chance of success in court and from info given....hope you are wealthy because you could be facing some hefty costs.
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:06 pm

so that's a no then ?!

Interestingly the Tribunal Procedure Rules at 18 (3) states A party to whom a document has been disclosed may use the document only for the purpose of the proceedings in which it is disclosed

I am unsure whether or not the plan in question could be classified as such a document as it was originally sent to the Land Registry as part of the application which if successful will obviously become part of the public record.

I may have to get legal advice on this as I appear to be out of my depth a little :wink:
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby mr sheen » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:52 pm

spennyroo wrote:
I may have to get legal advice on this as I appear to be out of my depth a little :wink:


That's a YES!
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby Eliza » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:15 pm

mr sheen wrote:
spennyroo wrote:
I may have to get legal advice on this as I appear to be out of my depth a little :wink:


That's a YES!



....and that's what I call "short and sweet" :lol:
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:17 pm

I know this is a bit of a long shot but I don't suppose anyone knows of any online forums where the members know anything about the law relating to Land Registry matters do they?
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:29 pm

Sorry UKmicky for my flippant comment!

I admit that I was probably wrong in that earlier statement and the complexities of estoppel would not be answered by reference to the LRA, my point at the time was meant to be that the transfer of land is a disposition that does not operate at law until the registration requirements are met.

I'm still trying to get my head around whether an estoppel that may have occurred in the past creates an equitable trust that can be passed down through multiple transactions, I certainly haven't acted in any way or through inaction allowed my neighbour to act to his own detriment.
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby ukmicky » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:27 pm

spennyroo wrote:I know this is a bit of a long shot but I don't suppose anyone knows of any online forums where the members know anything about the law relating to Land Registry matters do they?

Swarblaw.co.uk . You will not get specific advice regarding your case as solicitors have to be careful legally but they will awnser general questions. TCDT and many of the others are practising solicitors and conveyances and will answer questions.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby ukmicky » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:11 am

spennyroo wrote:Sorry UKmicky for my flippant comment!



I'm still trying to get my head around whether an estoppel that may have occurred in the past creates an equitable trust that can be passed down through multiple transactions, I certainly haven't acted in any way or through inaction allowed my neighbour to act to his own detriment.


Yes it can.

If someone can call upon equity against a previous land owners inaction or action it would be wrong for that right to denied to them if the property was then sold to someone else. Adverse possession is the ultimate example with land where an equitable trust can occur that can pass to successors in title.

Even if adverse possession cannot be claimed as not enough time has passed the time to act was in the very beginning when the wall was being built. If I build a wall or even a simple fence on your land and you fail to take action within a reasonable time you are risking losing control of that land. The reasonable time to act was when the fence or wall was being erected. This wall has been up for so many years an argument for estoppel would be the number one defence strategy for your neighbour if you could prove it was on your land. They can in the beginning argue multiple defences to cover them in case they were to lose the argument over actual ownership.

If the courts agreed there is an estoppel and after all these years there is a good chance they will, the courts can order damages in lieu of an injunction and decide on a sum to be paid to you for the land. If they were to order damages in lieu of an injunction they are basically saying its not all the wall owners fault and is partly due to you or to the previous owners of your land and in such circumstances orders for costs could be a worry .

And to anyone reading this wishing to go to court over a simple misplaced fence built on there land a few years back ,a fence is enough of a structure for the defendant to claim propriety estoppel. If something is being built on your land and you do not wish to give up any rights to your land , act when its being built and not afterwards.


You really do need that expert opinion and you need it now .
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:28 pm

Thank you Ukmickey for that succinct reply, I do appreciate what you are saying.

'If the courts agreed there is an estoppel and after all these years there is a good chance they will, the courts can order damages in lieu of an injunction and decide on a sum to be paid to you for the land.'

So basically they would force me to sell my land to my neighbor? Do you know of any case law references?

And I'm still holding off from appointing a barrister as my neighbors solicitor has started offering to settle (without prejudice of course :? )
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby mr sheen » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:04 pm

Both sides are expected to seek a resolution, that is the principle of civil disputes. If it goes to court and you get less than they are offering, they can submit their offers to the court for consideration of costs, that would then probably be assigned to you.

It is most unlikely that the court will order the removal of a wall that has been in place for many years. In such cases, it is acceptable to offer a nominal amount for the land, as the neighbours solicitors have done. You can ask for more for the land and see if a settlement can be reached. If you continue to base your case on what you believe is 'right' as oppose to a reasonable resolution, you will probably end up paying financially for your principles.

The land is pretty worthless, the wall has been there a long time, the wall is a substantial structure that was in place as the accepted boundary feature when you bought, the previous neighbour accepted the wall as the boundary.....You are not in a winning position. You may get a nominal amount for the value of the land but costs could be massive and if they can show that they acted within the spirit of the Law and tried to settle, and you didn't, you may have to pay costs for both sides....and their costs are already stacking up.

How many times and how many people have to tell you...you need a professional opinion about your chance of success and what 'success' in court may look like and more importantly what it could cost you. You may end up paying 10's of 000's and getting a few hundred back for the loss of the land...to prove you were right.
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby spennyroo » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:47 pm

Hi Mr Sheen

I have been trying to resolve this matter for nearly 18 months now!!

If it goes to court presumably I will be able to submit my first letter dated 3rd Oct 2014 in which I made an offer to settle things without recourse to any legal proceedings and sharing any costs involved??

There will come a time when I am forced to take legal counsel but to date this whole episode has cost me around £100 and I am loath to spend money when I don't have to as I am a true Yorkshireman.

A big part of me really really wants to go to court and have the matter judged but an old tutor of mine was fond of saying 'he who goes to the law takes a wolf by the ears' and these words continue to echo down the years!

Thanks for your interest.
S
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Re: We own our neighbours garden!?

Postby ukmicky » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:09 am

I haven't kept any case references. I could find some but it shouldn't be hard for you to using google. Include the words 'Damages in lieu of injunction'.

You seen this recent case reported in the papers..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -land.html


The winner was the teacher who placed her fence on her neighbours land because she won the estoppel argument and were allowed to keep the land. She however got hit with a very high costs order and had to pay legal costs of £50,000 .

She could have appealed the costs order and would have won if she had done it within the set time allowed but left it to late and the court of appeal had no power to relook at it.


Things to consider

You could loose the ownership argument.

You could loose due to an estoppel argument.

You could end up paying a proportion of your neighbours legal fees if they win either the ownership argument or the estoppel argument. .
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