shed built on boundary lines

Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:58 pm

Hi gadily,

I think I get it now.

the shed is less than 2.5m tall right now - so is fine and no planning application is required.

your immediate neighbour doesn't like it and is insisting you remove your guttering that overhangs into his airspace.

if you oblige him you'll need to modify the roof so that the run-off can be collected on your land, but this modification might increase the height.

have I understood?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby cleo5 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:54 pm

Hi
Perhaps, once you get permission to continue, it might be best to take off roof and one/two courses of bricks if and slope the reshaped ones, then replace roof with flat roof slightly sloping with gutter on your side and a pipe leading from gutter to water butt to the right or left side of door. So neighbour has no complaints about guttering or water dripping off.

shed will we well within the height permitted and maybe allow room for smoke pipe. Could you shorten lenth of pipe or bend it slightly so not so obvious.
Son in law built a block shed on a boundary here(boundary wall had collaped anyway) , flat.. slightly sloping room. Pipe for stove smoke.
It seems to work except in really heavy rain so maybe should have had a greater slope to it.
No need to waste money on plans or council costs for planning a sit is under required height.
Different situation perhaps as our land is some 6 feet lower than neighbours land so only bit of block,roof and chimney can be seen
Whatever you do is going to cost something. You need the quickest and easiest fix.
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby span » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:44 pm

gadily wrote:thankyou for reading the post so far MacadamB53 and Janieb

ive already explained that i cannot use full stops or commas

so what happened to being respectful to users of the site I am a newbie to the forum seeking advice

I am a mod on other sites and one of the forum etiquates is that you dont pick on peoples failings you are polite and respectful to other users

was there any need for this

Collaborate wrote:You could try. It looks like a dot on your keyboard.


span wrote:. dot
dot .
dot dot
. .

s'easy-peasy.


Anyhoo, if your guttering has been overhanging the boundary for 30 years then you neighbour is too late now complaining about it. Too late by about ten years.

dot


Your other forum's etiquette mean nothing on this forum, because every forum's different.

I've given you good advice - pity you didn't realise that.
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby gadily » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:48 pm

with thanks

you are correct macadam but so far we have to pay the 86.00 and submit drawings to actually find out if we need planning permission or not from the council.

if the shed actually needs planning permission or not due to the dispute that the neighbour caused

I think its partly to do what has been said by the next door neighbour as we was constantly asked if we had changed the use of the shed

cleo5 wrote:Hi
Perhaps, once you get permission to continue, it might be best to take off roof and one/two courses of bricks if and slope the reshaped ones, then replace roof with flat roof slightly sloping with gutter on your side and a pipe leading from gutter to water butt to the right or left side of door. So neighbour has no complaints about guttering or water dripping off.

shed will we well within the height permitted and maybe allow room for smoke pipe. Could you shorten lenth of pipe or bend it slightly so not so obvious.
Son in law built a block shed on a boundary here(boundary wall had collaped anyway) , flat.. slightly sloping room. Pipe for stove smoke.
It seems to work except in really heavy rain so maybe should have had a greater slope to it.
No need to waste money on plans or council costs for planning a sit is under required height.
Different situation perhaps as our land is some 6 feet lower than neighbours land so only bit of block,roof and chimney can be seen
Whatever you do is going to cost something. You need the quickest and easiest fix.


yes cleo was considering this for a once and for all approach submitting my intentions of the build to the council of the way you discribe but highering the back wall to allow for better fall as long as im under the 2.5m height range which it will be which is very possible to do

as goes for the flue pipe theres some new regs where you have to be 2.5m away from the boundary wall or boundary walls which the shed build is 9ft across the front and 11ft in length

yes i had taken note of the info span but council have already said its a civil matter with the guttering which all costs money with solicitors

the main thing ive been trying to find out is how high can i go with the roof on an old shed built on the boundary lines, something ive not been able to do even with a visit to the local planning office

and what sort of roof can i build onto it

as next door is demanding it was a flat roof as quoted to the council something which its never been they havent even had there property surveyed and dosnt even know where there boundarys actualy is, but we do



oh and span I do believe you better check your own rules as it clearly states

1: Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users.
Flaming or abusing users in any way will not be tolerated and will lead to a warning

8: All discussion using the private message system should remain that and not be posted in public.

We want Gardenlaw.co.uk to be a friendly place that people can obtain advice about their garden related issues without fear of insult, harassment or intimidation, so your continued membership is reliant upon adherence to the above rules.
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby span » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:21 pm

gadily wrote:with thanks

you are correct macadam but so far we have to pay the 86.00 and submit drawings to actually find out if we need planning permission or not from the council.

if the shed actually needs planning permission or not due to the dispute that the neighbour caused

I think its partly to do what has been said by the next door neighbour as we was constantly asked if we had changed the use of the shed

cleo5 wrote:Hi
Perhaps, once you get permission to continue, it might be best to take off roof and one/two courses of bricks if and slope the reshaped ones, then replace roof with flat roof slightly sloping with gutter on your side and a pipe leading from gutter to water butt to the right or left side of door. So neighbour has no complaints about guttering or water dripping off.

shed will we well within the height permitted and maybe allow room for smoke pipe. Could you shorten lenth of pipe or bend it slightly so not so obvious.
Son in law built a block shed on a boundary here(boundary wall had collaped anyway) , flat.. slightly sloping room. Pipe for stove smoke.
It seems to work except in really heavy rain so maybe should have had a greater slope to it.
No need to waste money on plans or council costs for planning a sit is under required height.
Different situation perhaps as our land is some 6 feet lower than neighbours land so only bit of block,roof and chimney can be seen
Whatever you do is going to cost something. You need the quickest and easiest fix.


yes cleo was considering this for a once and for all approach submitting my intentions of the build to the council of the way you discribe but highering the back wall to allow for better fall as long as im under the 2.5m height range which it will be which is very possible to do

as goes for the flue pipe theres some new regs where you have to be 2.5m away from the boundary wall or boundary walls which the shed build is 9ft across the front and 11ft in length

yes i had taken note of the info span but council have already said its a civil matter with the guttering which all costs money with solicitors

the main thing ive been trying to find out is how high can i go with the roof on an old shed built on the boundary lines, something ive not been able to do even with a visit to the local planning office

and what sort of roof can i build onto it

as next door is demanding it was a flat roof as quoted to the council something which its never been they havent even had there property surveyed and dosnt even know where there boundarys actualy is, but we do



oh and span I do believe you better check your own rules as it clearly states

1: Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users.
Flaming or abusing users in any way will not be tolerated and will lead to a warning

8: All discussion using the private message system should remain that and not be posted in public.

We want Gardenlaw.co.uk to be a friendly place that people can obtain advice about their garden related issues without fear of insult, harassment or intimidation, so your continued membership is reliant upon adherence to the above rules.


You haven't yet realised that I wasn't poking fun at you but at Collaborate's "dots"?

And yet, I've given you the best advice so far on here, and still you haven't even acknowledged it, much less thanked me for it. You're an ungrateful wretch, aren't you? You'll know when I have a go at you and your posting style - there'll be no doubt about it.
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby gadily » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:01 pm

span wrote:
gadily wrote:with thanks


yes i had taken note of the info span but council have already said its a civil matter with the guttering which all costs money with solicitors



You haven't yet realised that I wasn't poking fun at you but at Collaborate's "dots"?

And yet, I've given you the best advice so far on here, and still you haven't even acknowledged it, much less thanked me for it. You're an ungrateful wretch, aren't you? You'll know when I have a go at you and your posting style - there'll be no doubt about it.


ok then i appologise as mistakes can be made sorry but i took it as you was poking fun at the way i posted up on the forums

i had posted the comment above as thats what we was told by the council that it was a civil matter which means its solicitors and a cost which we dont want

though im going to ask how do we prove that its been up for that long ive only renewed it by putting new plastic facia board on to protect the wood for less maintenance

ive read if its been there along time it becomes a different matter

the new owner has only been within the property since a year and a quarter living within it
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:04 pm

Hi gadily,

as far as knowing whether the building requires planning permission or whether it meets the requirements to qualify as 'permitted development' I recommend taking a look at the wording of the legislation:

Class E – buildings etc incidental to the enjoyment of a dwellinghouse

Permitted development
E. The provision within the curtilage of the dwellinghouse of -
(a) any building or enclosure, swimming or other pool required for a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse as such, or the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of such a building or enclosure; or
(b) a container used for domestic heating purposes for the storage of oil or liquid petroleum gas.

Development not permitted
E.1 Development is not permitted by Class E if -
(a) permission to use the dwellinghouse as a dwellinghouse has been granted only by virtue of Class M, N, P or Q of Part 3 of this Schedule (changes of use);
(b) the total area of ground covered by buildings, enclosures and containers within the curtilage (other than the original dwellinghouse) would exceed 50% of the total area of the curtilage (excluding the ground area of the original dwellinghouse);
(c) any part of the building, enclosure, pool or container would be situated on land forward of a wall forming the principal elevation of the original dwellinghouse;
(d) the building would have more than a single storey;
(e) the height of the building, enclosure or container would exceed -
(i) 4 metres in the case of a building with a dual-pitched roof,
(ii) 2.5 metres in the case of a building, enclosure or container within 2 metres of the boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse, or
(iii) 3 metres in any other case;

(f) the height of the eaves of the building would exceed 2.5 metres;
(g) the building, enclosure, pool or container would be situated within the curtilage of a listed building;
(h) it would include the construction or provision of a verandah, balcony or raised platform;
(i) it relates to a dwelling or a microwave antenna; or
(j) the capacity of the container would exceed 3,500 litres.

E.2 In the case of any land within the curtilage of the dwellinghouse which is within -
(a) an area of outstanding natural beauty;
(b) the Broads;
(c) a National Park; or
(d) a World Heritage Site,

development is not permitted by Class E if the total area of ground covered by buildings, enclosures, pools and containers situated more than 20 metres from any wall of the dwellinghouse would exceed 10 square metres.

E.3 In the case of any land within the curtilage of the dwellinghouse which is article 2(3) land, development is not permitted by Class E if any part of the building, enclosure, pool or container would be situated on land between a wall forming a side elevation of the dwellinghouse and the boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse.


so, asumming neither E2 or E3 are relevant, your shed has already been granted planning permission unless:

it is more than 2.5m tall
OR
it's in the front garden

don't go needlessly spending £86 when it's that simple (what exactly were you told that was for btw?)

Kind regards, Mac
PS that gutter has not been there for decades - it's brand new
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby span » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:44 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Kind regards, Mac
PS that gutter has not been there for decades - it's brand new


Where did you get that idea from? All he said in his last post was the guttering was renewed with a new plastic fascia board. C'mon Mac, a champion nitpicker like you shouldn't be making this kind of elementary mistake.

From the opening post, about half-way down:
also the neighbour has demanded that we remove the gutter from the overhang thats been there for 35 years and has been renewed whilst the previous residents lived there as we both got water from the gutter for watering plants in the garden and was never disputed


Guttering has been overhanging for more than 20 years.
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:14 am

Hi span,

I doubt the OP could convince a court that his new gutter hangs where the old one did.
further, the quote you've referred to clearly sets out the new gutter was installed with consent.
additionally, the alterations to the roof may have increased the burden beyond what is in line with what was acquired if indeed there is a prescriptive easement.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby span » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:50 am

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi span,

I doubt the OP could convince a court that his new gutter hangs where the old one did.
further, the quote you've referred to clearly sets out the new gutter was installed with consent.
additionally, the alterations to the roof may have increased the burden beyond what is in line with what was acquired if indeed there is a prescriptive easement.

Kind regards, Mac


Who's side are you on here? A new fascia board isn't material to the 20 years that the guttering has been overhanging.
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby gadily » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:27 am

the shed is within the front garden but we have 25m front gardens to the road

the guttering used to be round gutter at the side of the shed 35 years ago we renewed it 16 years ago to the square line, only new clips have been added due to being brittle when newish facia board was installed at side of the shed and the old gutter reinstalled back up again

roof of shed from an ariel photo taken 33 years ago

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2iw6yfa0u9csm ... 3.jpg?dl=0

roof fall has been highered on the last 2 maintenance upgrade for better fall off the roof

the guttering was placed at the rear of the shed as you look at it which would be the side of the shed

this is the view leaned over wall to take the photo

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7kgugpuxoy57 ... 7.jpg?dl=0

35 years ago we split the water from the roof so that they could collect rainwater for an alotment within the garden the second owners 16 years ago wanted the water as well from the guttering so stayed as a split collection point of water from the guttering

i have a photo that shows on renewing the roof to an apex the guttering was left alone in situe and wasnt touched on the maintenance upgrade
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:11 am

Hi gadily,

a shed built in a front garden will require planning permission each time before some improvement/alteration can be completed or else it will be a breach of planning law.
if they become aware of such a breach within four years of it occurring, the local authority may take enforcement action.
after four years have elapsed, though, the development is considered as lawful - ie as if it had planning permission.

I'm not sure what the £86 is for?

as for the guttering, it seems from what you've told us that the original guttering was installed by agreement with the owner of next door at the time, and the second instalment 16 years ago was again done with consent from next door.
therefore, if the neighbour were to take you to court I think claiming your property has acquired an easement as your defence may well fail.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby gadily » Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:34 am

its an application for a lawful development certificate for a proposed use or development

as goes for proposed use its always been a store for work shed and also a tinker shed where things was built from and used at work as both my father and i have done over the years

the shed has electric in from 35 years ago and also a water point, drains are also there as well

the shed has always been a general use shed all 3 of our jobs as we all have done the building trade and fixed our vehicles
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby pilman » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:58 pm

When an application is to be made for a proposed use or development, the local planning authority have only to consider matters of law, not matters such as what they would like a development to look like.

Your problem is always going to be that the shed is forward of the house wall, meaning that there is no permitted development right for that building.
The words used in the GPDO were quoted earlier.
In the section headed "Development not allowed" part C was relevant to your shed.
"(c) any part of the building, enclosure, pool or container would be situated on land forward of a wall forming the principal elevation of the original dwellinghouse;"

If I were asked to comment on this matter as a planning consultant, I think I would advise you that planning permission needs to be applied for, rather than a lawful development certificate that will be refused.

In the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 it is section 55 that clarifies what is development and what is considered not to be development.
55 Meaning of “development” and “new development”.

(1)Subject to the following provisions of this section, in this Act, except where the context otherwise requires, “development,” means the carrying out of building, engineering, mining or other operations in, on, over or under land, or the making of any material change in the use of any buildings or other land.

[F1(1A)For the purposes of this Act “building operations” includes—

(a)demolition of buildings;

(b)rebuilding;

(c)structural alterations of or additions to buildings; and

(d)other operations normally undertaken by a person carrying on business as a builder.]

(2)The following operations or uses of land shall not be taken for the purposes of this Act to involve development of the land—

(a)the carrying out for the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of any building of works which—

(i)affect only the interior of the building, or

(ii)do not materially affect the external appearance of the building,
Note the wording used in paragraph (2)(ii) to describe what is not development.

You have changed the external appearance of the original shed, within the last four years, so you have undertaken a task that is considered to be development of a building located in the front garden of the property. Such a change to the external appearance needed planning permission, so currently the LPA could issue an enforcement notice claiming that there has been a breach of planning control that needs to be rectified.

The suggestion that you can apply for an LDC seems unrealistic, because the proposed development requires a granted planning permission, so cannot be lawful development. The Fee paid will be a waste of money because your application will be refused as not meeting the necessary legal requirement to be lawful development.

You will then have to re-apply with a full planning application to show how the newly designed shed will look in its final form.

Then the roof height can be shown at what is considered the best height possible to create an attractive building that will not allow water run off to either the pavement, or the neighbour's property. The 2.5 metres height only applies to a building constructed under permitted development rights on land behind the house and within 2 metres of a boundary.

For a full planning application the LPA have to decide what looks right, rather than having definite height limits prescribed to them by the Government.

If you intend to raise the height of the wall facing the pavement in order to have a single roof slope running back into the property, the wall and roof will have to look right, because visual amenity will be taken into account when the LPA have to decide a planning application.

When the shed was built in its original form all those years ago, after a few years had passed it became lawful even if it had not been granted planning permission.
It is the changes now being made that required the grant of planning permission, which is a completely separate matter of law than the other question posed about the guttering over the neighbour's land.

That overhanging gutter may have become lawful after 20 years under the Land Law rule known as prescription. A prescriptive easement could have become a legal easement after 20 years use without permission. If permission was granted by previous owners of the neighbouring property then that would nullify any claim that the gutter can now lawfully remain in its original position.
The current neighbour would have the law on his side if he started legal proceedings to have the guttering removed for overhanging his property.

That needs a court to make that decision, not the local council.
If it was the neighbour who has complained to the local planning authority about the modified shed then that is a low cost way of creating problems for you, rather than starting court proceedings with the costs that would involve.

Now that it seems necessary to make a full planning application to have a decision made about the shed's appearance, it would be sensible to show plans that remove the guttering from the neighbour's land and has a single plane roof sloping into your own property where a new gutter can direct the rainwater to a plastic storage tank, or a newly dug soak-away.

The alternative is to do nothing and wait to see what happens.
An Enforcement notice could be served by the LPA, or a court summons served by the neighbour's solicitor, or nothing further is heard from either.

At least you now should realise that your recent changes to the look of the shed has started a new period of time during which you are in breach of planning control under Planning Law and an continuing act of trespass under Land Law, if the neighbour can prove that earlier owners of his property granted permission for the overhanging gutters, which permission he has now told you is revoked.
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Re: shed built on boundary lines

Postby gadily » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:26 pm

thankyou pilman

the documents was given to us by the planning department only last week

as we called down at the offices with some basic drawings, photos and also the boundary lines to the house, the lady at planning wanted to know what was old on the building and what was new and what the shed was used for nothing else

the letter with cost is the only thing that was given to us to fill out and return back to them with drawings of the changes to the shed

but as explained theres other factors now involved with it

im thnking it maybe best to enquire which document we really need for this shed but im also wanting an end to this trouble with the shed once and for all

Now that it seems necessary to make a full planning application to have a decision made about the shed's appearance, it would be sensible to show plans that remove the guttering from the neighbour's land and has a single plane roof sloping into your own property where a new gutter can direct the rainwater to a plastic storage tank, or a newly dug soak-away.

The alternative is to do nothing and wait to see what happens.
An Enforcement notice could be served by the LPA, or a court summons served by the neighbour's solicitor, or nothing further is heard from either.

At least you now should realise that your recent changes to the look of the shed has started a new period of time during which you are in breach of planning control under Planning Law and an continuing act of trespass under Land Law, if the neighbour can prove that earlier owners of his property granted permission for the overhanging gutters, which permission he has now told you is revoked.



the single slope is what im thinking of a once and for all roof build sloping onto our property as it would stop any more trouble to do with the shed but it means the back end must be lifted for the roof fall to clear water off the roof

in my eyes its better to do something and offer something, than do nothing

the neighbour cannot prove granted permission for the overhanging gutters

the only thing i asked the last neighbours when they moved in would you like the guttering changed to run onto our land they said no leave it up as we can also collect the rain water from the gutter

can we prove it yes as we are still in contact with them

as goes for gutter it can be removed but we need to change the fall of the roof so it falls towards our land im thinking on the lines if done through the council its recorded and its the end of it once and for all
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