Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby arborlad » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:09 pm

For completeness, you need to copy and paste the post from the other thread that starts with this- 'I shall quote the first part of the document to clarify this:' .....best that you do it.
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby SarahSue » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:35 pm

arborlad wrote:For completeness, you need to copy and paste the post from the other thread that starts with this- 'I shall quote the first part of the document to clarify this:' .....best that you do it.


I shall quote the first part of the document to clarify this: "The transferee so as to bind the land hereby transferred into whosoever hands the same may come and so that this covenant may be for the benefit and protection of each and every part of the Estate hereby covenants with the Transferor that the Transferee and those deriving title under his will at all times hereafter observe and perform the restrictions and stipulations contained in the Second Schedule hereto so that the Transferee shall not be liable for a breach of this covenant occurring on or in respect of the land hereby transferred or any part thereof after he has parted with all interest therein."
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby pilman » Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:35 pm

I don't normally look at the "Fences" forum because it is not an area of expertise for me.

Now that there has been an indication that this thread is a second one on the same/similar subject, I did just look at the other posting by sorra so I now feel that I can make another comment about certain earlier postings being a complete waste of time.
Some developers do include restrictive covenants that are intended to create an open plan element to the front of all the houses in the development. That would have been inserted into the Transfer deed when each house plot was sold off.
That was posted because the only indication that there was a known restrictive covenant was in the other posting I had not seen.
The wording on the covenant is: "It being the intention that the Estate shall be an open plan development, no fence or wall or hedge of any description shall be permitted to exist in advance of the front elevation of the building other than a screen fence erected in accordance with the planning requirements".


The words "planning requirements" now provide a further interpretation of the legal meaning of those particular words, as well as the legal interpretation of what is considered to be a "screen fence"

There is also a need to identify whether anyone else derived the benefit of this restrictive covenant, because of the wording included in that transfer to the OP.
so that this covenant may be for the benefit and protection of each and every part of the Estate
The question then becomes "did it become a covenant for the benefit and protection of each and every part of the Estate"

The word "may" does not have a definite meaning, unless steps were taken to ensure that as each plot was sold off the benefit of this particular covenant was assigned to each new plot owner with th ecorrect wording inserted into every transfer.

The OP can verify that for himself because his own transfer needed to include the necessary words and phrases that passed on the benefit of enforcing that covenant over all the other houses in the "Estate" which has not yet been identified.

Erecting fencing is a matter now dealt with by the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 which is the latest version of the GPDO introduced in 1995.
Although fencing has always been granted planning permission, as was mentioned several times in this posting, as long as height limits are observed.
Does that meet the requirement stated in the covenant that every fence intended to screen from view wheelie bins is "a screen fence erected in accordance with the planning requirements" as set out by the Governement in the GPDO.

Now there is another element regarding development being considered by the OP.
Several large pots placed on the land he owns will be filled with concrete and have steel poles inserted to remain in an upright position.
Then willow fencing panels will be attached to those poles to screen the ugly and intrusive wheelie bins.

That does not meet the definition of development defined in Section 56 of The Town and Country Planning Act 1990, so is that actually a "fence" at all, or is it a decorative feature situated in the front garden of a house along with other pots contaning flowers or shrubs.

I have to say that any neighbour intending to dispute the legitamacy of such a barrier being situated on land belonging to the next door property owner will need deep pockets if they intend to object based on the wording used in the transfer now shown to us by the OP.

Perhaps sorra can confirm whether that transfer he has for his own property used words that passed on the benefit of all restrictive covenants imposed by the original developer, or is this a case where only the Estate developer can actual sue for breach of covenant as long as that developer has retained any land that would actually benefit from the covenant.
Most estate developers don't. Once all the plots are sold and the public highways and verges are adopted by th eHighway Authority, then that means there is no longer land owned by the developer that will benefit from any covenant.
And all this to prevent someone hiding from view his neighbour's multitude of wheelie bins kept at the front of the house, rather than in the back garden where they ought to belong.
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby SarahSue » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:26 pm

Thank you for your very detailed and thorough response, Pilman.

Indeed yes, all this hassle just to screen the wheelie bins of inconsiderate neighbours who insist on locating their bins in such a way as to be unattractive and intrusive. My entire road is blighted by such bins but none more inconsiderately located than those of my neighbour.
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby SarahSue » Mon May 09, 2016 10:56 pm

UPDATE: We put in place a trellis planter which is 6 foot high and wide and covered said bins (located along our boundary just to be a nuisance). The trellis planter looks fantastic and is a nice feature at the front of the house. Predictably the tw** next door shuffled his bins along so they are in our view but then back again (we think the police had a word) so just one remains partially in our sight. We have put in a large box bush and that issue is resolved.

We still have one remaining problem. A large panel of their back fence is down and they have made no attempt to fix it. We are not on speaking terms so no point in asking them to sort it (it would be pointless to even mention it to them). There is very clear wording on the deeds about it being their responsibiilty to maintain a trespass proof fence and no question it is their fence. I have already put bushes in there but the coverage isn't great. Is there any point in taking legal advice on this? My worry is that it would cost us £250 plus in solicitor's fees to get them to fix a fence.
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby despair » Tue May 10, 2016 7:12 am

definitely dont bother with solicitors fees over a fence panel

theres no point .....just totally ignore the clown and do your own thing
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby mr sheen » Tue May 10, 2016 7:25 am

It is virtually impossible to force someone to repair or replace a fence even where there are covenants, so it's a complete waste of money seeing a solicitor with a view to trying to do it.
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby SarahSue » Tue May 10, 2016 9:50 am

This is the bad neighbour who just keeps on giving.

But advice gratefully received and taken.
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby arborlad » Tue May 10, 2016 10:22 am

sorra wrote: A large panel of their back fence is down and they have made no attempt to fix it. We are not on speaking terms so no point in asking them to sort it (it would be pointless to even mention it to them).



While the 'ignore' option is always there, it could also be an opportunity to restore some sanity to the situation by donating a panel to the neighbour - through an intermediary if necessary. If one panel is down, what is the rest of the fence like?
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby SarahSue » Tue May 10, 2016 2:26 pm

arborlad wrote:
sorra wrote: A large panel of their back fence is down and they have made no attempt to fix it. We are not on speaking terms so no point in asking them to sort it (it would be pointless to even mention it to them).



While the 'ignore' option is always there, it could also be an opportunity to restore some sanity to the situation by donating a panel to the neighbour - through an intermediary if necessary. If one panel is down, what is the rest of the fence like?


Arborlad, the entire situation has no sanity to it. Even before they moved in, they were pushing their bins onto our boundary and then back again when we moved them. They seemed to think that was okay. Then we put screening in and he deliberately moved the bins so we would still see them. In his words 'Whenever you leave your house, you will see our bins'. This is not a reasonable person.

The other fence panels are all split and a matter of time before they fall down too. As i write this, he has parked his car right at the edge of my garden. They have a double drive and one car. Believe me, this is not a reasonable man, however generous the sentiment. I am sure they could afford to fix the panel but they will know it looks unsightly to us and blights our garden.
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby despair » Tue May 10, 2016 2:56 pm

Your neighbours are bullies pure and simple
I bet they caused trouble for previous owners of your house and if that was not declared on sale info you have a case against them for
Non disclosure

But the only thing with bullies is to completely shun them ,ignore every stupid antic
Install CCTV so you have everything on recording then sooner or later they go OTT and you have them banged to rights
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby mr sheen » Tue May 10, 2016 3:19 pm

sorra wrote:
Even before they moved in, they were pushing their bins onto our boundary and then back again when we moved them. They seemed to think that was okay. Then we put screening in and he deliberately moved the bins so we would still see them. In his words 'Whenever you leave your house, you will see our bins'. This is not a reasonable person.

The other fence panels are all split and a matter of time before they fall down too. As i write this, he has parked his car right at the edge of my garden. They have a double drive and one car. Believe me, this is not a reasonable man, however generous the sentiment. I am sure they could afford to fix the panel but they will know it looks unsightly to us and blights our garden.


A word of caution to those classifying the neighbours as 'bullies' etc etc......

Put bins 'onto' boundary
Moved bins so we could see them

Won't replace fence panels

These issues, whilst irritating, are not an actionable nuisance....in fact probably not a legal nuisance at all. They can use their land right up to your boundary. It may annoy you but if they are on their own land/not on your land, they are fully entitled to put their bins right up to your boundary and where you can see them.

They can also park outside your boundary (on the edge of your garden) even if they have a big driveway, if there are no parking restrictions.

Now you may get some sympathy here from contributors who like to classify people from snippets of info from one party in a dispute. However, it is important to distinguish between annoying behaviour and actionable nuisance for your own long term peace of mind and to save you from inadvertently escalating a situation which you have no chance of changing, and ultimately making things much worse. Sometimes you have to take stock and keep things in perspective and be absolutely clear about your legal position before doing anything at all....and in this case it may be that you have annoying neighbours and you may have to grit your teeth and grin and bear it in order to avoid escalation into a full blown dispute where you may be seen as the aggressor....because if all their actions are within the letter of the law, your complaints will be seen as aggressive. I'm not saying that this is the case.....just putting the case that the issues mentioned may well be within their rights and they are pushing their rights to the extreme limit to get a response from you that makes you into the 'bad neighbours'.

I would ignore these antics and get on with my own life.
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby SarahSue » Tue May 10, 2016 9:39 pm

despair wrote:Your neighbours are bullies pure and simple
I bet they caused trouble for previous owners of your house and if that was not declared on sale info you have a case against them for
Non disclosure

But the only thing with bullies is to completely shun them ,ignore every stupid antic
Install CCTV so you have everything on recording then sooner or later they go OTT and you have them banged to rights


We have lived in this house for 24 years and they bought the house next door last November and moved into it in February. Right from the start there were problems.

Yes, of course they are probably doing nothing illegal. At the very start, he was aggressive towards us when we asked that they keep DIY within reasonable hours and other neighbours heard his ranting and swearing and we called the police (we both felt threatened).

I am aware that you just have one side of this sorry tale. We have no choice but to try and ignore his childish 'antics'. I just do not understand why someone would move into a new house and instantly set out to piss off the neighbours. I know i am well thought of in this road and seen as a helpful and kind neighbour. The other neighbours are pretty appalled but very supportive towards us. We have stood up to him, put things in place to ensure he cannot 'taunt' us with his bins in our faces. Sadly, it seems he will carry on being a nuisance. :(
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 am

Hi sorra,

it seems he will carry on being a nuisance

nothing you have described would be considered a nuisance - in a legal sense.

so if the law allows him to put his bins there it follows that the law thinks you ought to be able to cope with it - and I think you can if you want to.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Complete row of townhouses with out of sync boundaries

Postby SarahSue » Wed May 11, 2016 4:28 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi sorra,

it seems he will carry on being a nuisance

nothing you have described would be considered a nuisance - in a legal sense.

so if the law allows him to put his bins there it follows that the law thinks you ought to be able to cope with it - and I think you can if you want to.

Kind regards, Mac


The fact that we went to the expense and trouble of screening said bins, just to have him deliberately move them along so we could still see them was classified as nuisance behaviour by the police and they had a word (just as they did when he was verbally abusive). This whole trouble kicked off when he sited his bins in front of our front door (and within our boundary) when they first purchased the house. TBH, when i spoke to the community police officer, I was surprised that it was classified as nuisance behaviour too.
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