yet another boundary dispute

Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby SwitchRich » Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:01 pm

Thanks for the update!
Do you have any pictures or documents you could show the forum? It would be interesting to see.
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby mr sheen » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:21 pm

This is a case of confusion about the role of the police, solicitors and deeds in relation to boundaries. T marks do not necessarily indicate ownership, more evidence of ownership is required. Only a court order can enforce a boundary position if the parties fail to come to an agreement.
You wanted the police to get your neighbour to accept your assertions...they cannot do that....and the neighbour seems to know that.
?..??The police advised you to take him to court????!! Police officers have all sorts of backgrounds and training in criminal law and procedures but they are not Lawyers and often do not understand civil procedures and boundary disputes and should not be giving legal advice...are you sure they didn't say ...your only option is to take him to court?? Or similar? It is highly unlikely that a police officer gave you legal advice as you previously indicated that the police officer said you were right about your boundary....all highly unlikely or a police officer who needs additional training.

The surveyor has come up with an encroachment of 6cm! How has he arrived at that conclusion? 6cm is a very small encroachment and would require very accurate evidence to support it.

Making a point by going to court is a very risky and potentially very expensive point to make to prove you are in the right. A Judge will throw a tantrum that neighbours are wasting court time over over 6cm...ie land of actual worth of just a few pounds in comparison with the engagement of the massively expensive British court system.

I'm afraid you need to take a reality check on this matter ...and urgently before throwing more money at it. Threatening court is often ignored since many people now know that getting as far as court is pretty unlikely so the neighbour ignoring these threats is not unusual at all. In fact entirely predictable by those who frequent this forum often. There is a big difference between being incensed by a neighbours actions and being able to do anything about it.

So far the police, your deeds, surveyor and now solicitor....have all had no effect...because none can enforce anything....the only way to enforce this is a court order...and that may prove difficult for 6cm.
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby COGGY » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:33 pm

Mr Sheen I did not read this as tho the OP is disputing 6 cm. He is just asking that the fence stay in the position it was in when he bought his property. Then he added that the Surveyor stated the fence looks as tho it may be 6 cm on the OP's land. He has not said he is fighting to recover this 6 cm. I think it is perfectly acceptable that, if the fence has just been taken down, then the Surveyor and the police should be able to easily confirm where the fence has been removed from. You appear to state that the OP, having just purchased his property, should permit the neighbour to remove the existing fence and take part of the land he has only just purchased. Surely that cannot be what you mean to say? Kind regards Coggy
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby mr sheen » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:56 pm

I'm not saying that the OP should or should not do anything. I am just pointing out the issues of the situation since the OP is talking about court action.

Coggy - Perhaps you can explain how the neighbours can be forced to move the fence to the original position just by using what the police and surveyor say. Only a court order can force it. The OP has indicated that he intends to pursue court action. If court action is to be pursued, the exact position has to be specifically identified with the deeds, photos, evidence etc and the most specific evidence is that a surveyor has indicated that it may have encroached by 6 cm so this would be key evidence that is not very supportive of the OP's case in a situation where court action is being pursued.

There is also the issue of acceptable margins of error when replacing a fence and 6 cm may well come within those margins and if so the OP could lose and be faced with costs. I am merely raising awareness of these issues so that the OP can make an informed decision before throwing more money at this.
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby COGGY » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:06 pm

Hi Mr Sheen

The way I read it the 6 cm is a red herring. That is a fact brought up by the Surveyor. The OP is not asking to gain the 6 cm of land. He is asking to keep the land he only recently purchased. Surely that is a reasonable request? What would you do should your neighbour take down your fence and state he is putting it in a different position? Would you accept it? Would you fight it? I think you would do what any reasonable person would do, you would attempt to keep the land which you have purchased. That seems right and fair to me. Kind regards Coggy
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby mr sheen » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:31 pm

Surveyors report is the strongest evidence currently available, so not really a red herring! The position of previous fences and length of time in this position are all unknowns.
Currently the claimant is in receipt of evidence that indicates that his case relies on around 6cm of land. A risk for getting an injunction.
So Coggy ......how would you propose to fight it????
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby COGGY » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:21 pm

Hi Mr Sheen

I do not pretend to be an expert, but surely we all should fight for what we believe to be right. The OP in his first post stated:-

I recently move to west London on the 12th of July into an end of terrace property and on the 13th of July my neighbour decides to remove my boundary fence while I was at work, Luckily that day my wife was not feeling well and decided to stay home, she started to hear a banging noise and the sound of a grinder she looks outside and see's two polish builders remove part of our fence and concrete driveway and digging down to 1 ft and a half. I immediately ask her to give them my number to call and discuss. The owner gets one of the builders to call me and I then tell him that the fence is mine and should not touch it, he refuses to agree and I insist which he then agrees after.

When I got home I went directly to my neighbours house knocked on his door and one of his tenants answer's it, he then calls the landlord who comes out with his title plan showing me that the line is not straight on the ground and should match whats on the title plan. I then tell him that it is he then shows me the boundary fence opposite my house which is actually over a foot out, I started to wonder what I just bought did the previous buyer con me ?

I then told him to stop all his work and we will get a surveyor to check the boundaries. Me pannicking I called the previous owner who was very sorry and stunned to what was going on and promised me his full co-orporation in resolving this matter. Well long story short I got police involved who told us both although they knew I was in the right to go seek legal advice and told him to stop building.

I went to seek legal advice and wrote him two letters outlining that my solicitor has looked over the deeds and found nothing to mention that he owns any part of land within my boundaries or owns the fence as the "T's are on my side in the ordnance map and had no response from him.

The previous owner got me some old picture of the fence which looks to be in the same location it is today and also got a sworn statement (affidavit) done for me. I showed it to the owner who flat out refused to acknowledge any part of it and saying I am a bad person lol.

He then starts explaining to me that he already discussed the boundary issue with the previous owner and he agreed for him to change the boundary however on the sworn statement it also mentions that the previous owner never gave any such permission and showing this to him also made him more stubborn.

He will also not hire a solicitor until he gets court papers from me which I said this is not in your favour, he walk off and said I have money lets do it.


In my opinion the evidence of the Vendor supports the OP's claim. If I were in the OP's shoes I would immediately look on Google Earth to see if I could find any evidence to support my case there.

Are you of the opinion that the OP should just let the neighbour take part of the property which he (OP) has only just purchased? IMO the neighbour is taking advantage of the situation and I would want to fight that.

Kind regards Coggy
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby mr sheen » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:54 pm

You haven't answered my question Coggy.
How would you enforce it?

No I don't agree that we should all fight for what we BELIEVE.....since belief and the truth are often different.
Find out the truth/real situation....and then accepting it, is better.
Getting more evidence would be very helpful but if a land surveyor has done his job properly he will have made his judgement using aerial photos, plans etc etc. unless the surveyor was instructed differently or a cheap inaccurate report was instructed. However the evidence available that we are aware of is a surveyors report.

what people BELIEVE in relation to land and boundaries often turns out to be some distance from what evidence shows to be the case. The evidence in this case suggests that there is 6cm of land in dispute and the belief of the OP does not stand up to the surveyors report in court.

He bought it with the fence in a position and assumed that it was on the boundary but the neighbour may have added a fence on his side years ago or all sorts of other things could have happened we have no idea. Can only base my view upon the evidence that indicates that 6cm is in dispute. It would be interesting to find out what the response of the solicitor was when he read the surveyors report and the subsequent advice. The OP has indicated that a solicitor has looked at the deeds and passed an initial opinion ....what is his advice now? Has there been disclosure of the surveyors report to the neighbour?
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby arborlad » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:48 pm

mr sheen wrote:Can only base my view upon the evidence that indicates that 6cm is in dispute.




Although the 6cm is significant, it is not the root of the problem - the problem is the neighbour has removed the OPs fence and is now attempting to build a wall on the OPs land.
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smile...it confuses people
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby mr sheen » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:00 pm

We Can see the issues Arborlad....what can be done about it? Since 6cm is amount of OP land what do you suggest?
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby COGGY » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:00 pm

Hi Mr Sheen

The OP has explained, clearly, that the problem is caused by the neighbour removing the fence and attempting to build a wall on land belonging to the OP. The OP has contacted his Vendor who has confirmed that the fence was in the correct position. A Surveyor was employed in order to confirm this and gave his opinion that the fence was 6 cm into the OP's garden. The OP is not attempting to claim the 6 cms in question. He is attempting to retain the land which he believed he was purchasing. His proof is that the Vendor confirms the fence has been in the same position for some years and the solicitor has confirmed that the fence is the boundary of the OPs garden.

Imagine you woke up tomorrow morning to find your neighbour had removed whatever boundary marker you have and was in process of having a wall built on land that you believe you own. How would you react? Would you say "Oh well, going to court is expensive, I will allow my neighbour to steal some of my land"? Most unlikely imo.

Kind regards Coggy
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby pilavas719 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:55 am

Hello all,

After doing the survey and posting through my solicitor my neighbour did not sign for it, so had to wait for the letter to be returned I then posted it myself special pre 9am deliveru and saw him sign for it.
Don't he agreed with the survey though as he put up the cordon again.

Looks like I will have to take him to court just to save the piece of land he has taken. I have taken all necessary steps to ensure I have sufficient evidence. so far I have:

1.sworn statement from previous owner
2.land survey
3.The fact I just moved in and he removes the boundary fence, surely a judge would immediately assume what he was trying to do
4.Old photos taken in 1985 and 2008, the one from 1985 clearly shows the boundary in the same location it is today
5. I can get aerial photo from bluesky aerial photographs but from what I can see on google maps it is very clear.
6.I could get some witness statements If I need.

What else can help me with this case should it go to court ?
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby jonahinoz » Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:03 am

Hi,

One of my RAF colleagues was charged with stealing soap. In fact he had only borrowed it for a few minutes ... but it was a smidgen smaller when he returned it. Three days "Jankers".

6cm is a bit over two inches in old money. On the other hand it's half the thickness of a single skin brick wall. I suppose it could be argued that Fazil is being gifted half a brick wall. Two inches? You could gain that by pulling hard on a fabric tape measure.

Personally, I would rather lose two inches, and have a brick wall that I was not responsible for, between me and an awkward neighbour, than a fence that will eventually become a "talking point". A wall will probably increase the value of Fazil's house.

The difficult bit now, is "eating crow" (losing face), and agreeing to the wall. Can anybody think of a way of turning a change of mind into "gaining moral high ground"? Or otherwise turning it to Fazil's benefit? Would he like a garden path alongside the wall? Or a bucket of cement?

John W
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:07 am

Hi Fazil,

you have never stated how much land you believe you'd lose if you allowed the neighbour to build his wall.

can you please clarify something from the surveyor's findings...

is it:
the original fence stood 6cm in from the edge of your land
OR
the trench dug by the neighbour encroaches by 6cm

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: yet another boundary dispute

Postby mr sheen » Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:23 am

Don't normally bother to take the 'warned you!' Approach. But so many contributors seek to fuel disputes between people that are obviously going to result in this type of outcome that need to point it out since this has cost money and will require a climb down. It's easy to take the moral high ground with OPM - other people's money.

This should never have got this far over 2 inches of land....said it earlier and will say it again, if you continue with this to court it will cost a fortune and the Judge will be livid at the costs in comparison with the value of land in dispute.

A compromise outcome is the way to go before the climb down gets bigger and bigger.
Last edited by mr sheen on Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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