Hello

Hello

Postby MPSTEVENS » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:03 am

Hello to everyone on here i'm a new member to this forum.

I'm hoping someone might be able to help me with a question i have with regards to boundaries?

I have been living in my semi detached property for 21 years and just recently a builder has aquired a property with land on the detached side of the property. The said builder has put planning in for a property to the side of my property and has incorporated this on my boundary (Stone wall). I have looked at my deeds and it shows that the boundary wall is indicated as mine as it shows the base of the "T" on the deeds to my side. Can anyone advise if it is likely he will get the go ahead to build on the boundary wall?

Many Thanks
Mike
MPSTEVENS
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:34 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: Hello

Postby Collaborate » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:36 am

Planning consent doesn't consider who owns the land, so if he's granted PP he still doesn't have the right to build on your wall without your consent.

Have you spoken to him and shown him your proof of ownership? If he wants to build close to your wall he may have to follow the procedure in the Party Wall Act.
Collaborate
 
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:17 am

Re: Hello

Postby despair » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:53 am

ditto

make very sure you put in writing that its your wall on your deeds
you do not in any way give consent for him to incorporate it or demolish it or tamper with it or its foundations

that you will require the Party Wall Act to be used and for him to pay for your own independant PWA surveyor as the law allows you to do
despair
 
Posts: 16040
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:07 am

Re: Hello

Postby MPSTEVENS » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:04 am

Thank you for your intelligent and well informed friendly advice.
MPSTEVENS
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:34 pm

Re: Hello

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:10 am

Hi Mike,

I have looked at my deeds and it shows that the boundary wall is indicated as mine as it shows the base of the "T" on the deeds to my side.

I'm afraid 'T' marks alone mean nothing - is there any wording in the 'parcel clause' (the bit that describes the land) of the conveyance document?

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Hello

Postby MPSTEVENS » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:25 am

Hi It says on the Conveyance,

"In pursuance of the said agreement and in consideration of the sum of £***** now paid by the purchaser to the Vendor (the receipt whereof the Vendor hereby acknowledges) the Vendor as Beneficial Owner hereby conveys unto the purchase ALL THAT piece or parcel of land adjacent to "name of land where builder wants to build" in the Parish of ********* in the County of **********

These deeds date back to 1952.

I have dotted out the the actual amount and place names

Does that help me?

Kind Regards
Mike
MPSTEVENS
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:34 pm

Re: Hello

Postby MPSTEVENS » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:53 am

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi Mike,

I have looked at my deeds and it shows that the boundary wall is indicated as mine as it shows the base of the "T" on the deeds to my side.

I'm afraid 'T' marks alone mean nothing - is there any wording in the 'parcel clause' (the bit that describes the land) of the conveyance document?

Kind regards, Mac


Hi Mac It says on the Conveyance,

"In pursuance of the said agreement and in consideration of the sum of £***** now paid by the purchaser to the Vendor (the receipt whereof the Vendor hereby acknowledges) the Vendor as Beneficial Owner hereby conveys unto the purchase ALL THAT piece or parcel of land adjacent to "name of land where builder wants to build" in the Parish of ********* in the County of **********

These deeds date back to 1952.

I have dotted out the the actual amount and place names

Does that help me?

Kind Regards
Mike
MPSTEVENS
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:34 pm

Re: Hello

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:08 am

Hi Mike,

having 'T' marks on a plan doesn't mean much unless they're explicitly referred to in a deed.

that said, has your neighbour any better evidence to prove to wall may be his?

as part of his planning application he must sign a certificate regarding ownership of the development site:

Cert A if he owns it all
Cert B if he owns some and has served notice on all others
Cert C if he owns some and has served notice on all known others (where some are also unknown)
Cert D if he owns some and all others are unknown

if he's signed Cert A you must make the LPA aware of this discrepancy - otherwise his application is invalid.

have you considered selling him the wall?

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Hello

Postby arborlad » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:40 pm

MPSTEVENS wrote:Hello to everyone on here i'm a new member to this forum.

I'm hoping someone might be able to help me with a question i have with regards to boundaries?

I have been living in my semi detached property for 21 years and just recently a builder has aquired a property with land on the detached side of the property. The said builder has put planning in for a property to the side of my property and has incorporated this on my boundary (Stone wall). I have looked at my deeds and it shows that the boundary wall is indicated as mine as it shows the base of the "T" on the deeds to my side. Can anyone advise if it is likely he will get the go ahead to build on the boundary wall?

Many Thanks
Mike



On its own, that is not proof that the wall is yours, but it is evidence. Does the wall match with any other other that you know to be yours?

What is the current use of the land next door?

Are you in a conservation area or is your property listed?

A stone wall is going to have a significant footprint.

When was your property built?
Last edited by arborlad on Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7382
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Hello

Postby Collaborate » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:12 pm

Assuming the land next door is undeveloped, the law will assume that whoever built your house also built the boundary wall, and did so on your land.
Collaborate
 
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:17 am

Re: Hello

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:22 pm

Collaborate wrote:Assuming the land next door is undeveloped, the law will assume that whoever built your house also built the boundary wall, and did so on your land.
to be clear, that isn't the same as a legal presumption - where it is taken as fact unless proven otherwise.

Collaborate, would you mind elaborating further on the point you've made - why does building a house mean a wall must have been contemporaneously built? surely the law would require a review of the facts and we might be discussing a centuries old stone wall and a 1950s brick semi...

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Hello

Postby MPSTEVENS » Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:39 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi Mike,

having 'T' marks on a plan doesn't mean much unless they're explicitly referred to in a deed.

that said, has your neighbour any better evidence to prove to wall may be his?

as part of his planning application he must sign a certificate regarding ownership of the development site:

Cert A if he owns it all
Cert B if he owns some and has served notice on all others
Cert C if he owns some and has served notice on all known others (where some are also unknown)
Cert D if he owns some and all others are unknown

if he's signed Cert A you must make the LPA aware of this discrepancy - otherwise his application is invalid.

have you considered selling him the wall?

Kind regards, Mac


Hi Mac, Thanks for your reply and advice with regards to the certificates.
I wouldn't want to sell him my boundary wall as this would possibly give him the indication of a green light to go ahead and build the side of his new house on the side rear of my garden.
MPSTEVENS
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:34 pm

Re: Hello

Postby MPSTEVENS » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:00 pm

arborlad wrote:
MPSTEVENS wrote:Hello to everyone on here i'm a new member to this forum.

I'm hoping someone might be able to help me with a question i have with regards to boundaries?

I have been living in my semi detached property for 21 years and just recently a builder has aquired a property with land on the detached side of the property. The said builder has put planning in for a property to the side of my property and has incorporated this on my boundary (Stone wall). I have looked at my deeds and it shows that the boundary wall is indicated as mine as it shows the base of the "T" on the deeds to my side. Can anyone advise if it is likely he will get the go ahead to build on the boundary wall?

Many Thanks
Mike



On its own, that is not proof that the wall is yours, but it is evidence. Does the wall match with any other other that you know to be yours?

What is the current use of the land next door?

Are you in a conservation area or is your property listed?

A stone wall is going to have a significant footprint.

When was your property built?


Hi and thanks for your time.

The current land adjacent to my property is a former public house which is Grade 2 listed.
To the rear of my property is a stone wall which used to be a farmstead with associated buildings.

There is also an old hay loft which incorporates the side of my boundary wall which is away from the former pub.
(This hay loft however belongs to the builder who bought the pub & land) This is a grey area also as the hay loft barn runs into the boundary wall which then runs around to the front of my house.
The wall stone does follow round the side to the front of my property.

Not a conservation area however and the only building listed is the former pub.

My current deeds show as far back as 1893 which was formally part of an Inn with clubroom, barn stable, outbuildings, garden and orchards.
By estimation 3 roods, 31 perches or thereabouts.
My House shows as a dwelling on the deeds as far back as 1910 as far as i can see? perhaps even before this time?

Thank You
MPSTEVENS
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:34 pm

Re: Hello

Postby Collaborate » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:05 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
Collaborate wrote:Assuming the land next door is undeveloped, the law will assume that whoever built your house also built the boundary wall, and did so on your land.
to be clear, that isn't the same as a legal presumption - where it is taken as fact unless proven otherwise.

Collaborate, would you mind elaborating further on the point you've made - why does building a house mean a wall must have been contemporaneously built? surely the law would require a review of the facts and we might be discussing a centuries old stone wall and a 1950s brick semi...

Kind regards, Mac


I envisaged the neighbouring land to be undeveloped. No one's going to build a boundary wall for an empty field, but they will for a house.

OP's later posts make the situation less clear cut.

It's an evidential burden rather than a legal presumption.
Collaborate
 
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:17 am

Re: Hello

Postby jonahinoz » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:33 pm

Hi,

I understand that there are two conventions (assuming pub was there first ... and owned your plot.

1. The pub sells the land with the requirement that the purchaser builds a wall.

2. The pub sells the land, and erects their own wall, so that they know where the boundary is, and have control of the wall. This might be more usual with a farm ... in which case it would be a fence.

You say you have the DEEDS. Do you mean proper deeds, not just a copy of the Land Register?

Try doing a Google search for "NAME OF PUB NAME OF VILLAGE". You may find some historical photographs, and details of any documents held in your local archives. Your local archives should have copies of historic OS maps, published every so many years. You might find your house on one but not on the previous edition ... and the same for the pub.

Obtain the Land Register for the pub ... there may be information not shown on your register.

John W
jonahinoz
 
Posts: 1342
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:15 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
Next

Return to Boundaries

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 4 guests