Defining a legal boundary

Defining a legal boundary

Postby bluebell74 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:19 pm

First post - please bear with me!

My neighbour lives on an a road which is adjacent to our unadopted road, we drive along the side of his property and garden when we access our road and homes. The road is owned and maintained by the residents with RoW to the houses on it, but is becoming difficult to drive a large car without touching hedges to the sides. An ambulance struggle up last week, and visibility at the bottom of the lane is restricted.

He insists that he can grow thick hedges beyond his general boundary because it is in fact the legal boundary that matters in this instance.

That's my first question : if we were to say we are permitted to cut them back to the boundary, would he be correct and would we have damaged his property?

Secondly, if it is correct to use the general boundary as guidance for where a physical boundary should be, would we be permitted to maintain it ourselves and cut back to the boundary?

Finally, is all of that irrelevant? If our deeds show that we should be able to pass without hindrance, can we request that he does cut them to a reasonable enough width to allow larger vehicles and do it ourselves if he doesn't?



(1946) Together with such rights of way as are at present enjoyed in connection with the said property and particularly a right of way for the purchasers and their successors in title and their tenants owners and occupiers for the time being of the property hereby conveyed and all persons authorised by them in common with all other persons for the time being being entitles to a similar right at all times and for all purposes and either with or without horses carts carriages motor cars and other vehicles over and along the existing private road upon which the property hereby abuts to'
bluebell74
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:49 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby Collaborate » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:41 pm

There is only one boundary. Determine where it is, and then cut the hedge back to that.
Collaborate
 
Posts: 1122
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:17 am

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby mr sheen » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:43 pm

A right to pass and repass comes with the ancillary rigt to maintain the right of way so that you can fully enjoy your rights. You should be able to pass and repass without risk of damage to vehicles and you can cut back encroaching vegetation as part of your ancillary maintenance rights so that you can fully enjoy your right to pass and repass. So the legal boundary is in fact irrelevant where a right of way abuts vegetation and owned land, you can cut back as far as is reasonable to ensure you can pass and repass. You must be able to justify the extent of cutting back as 'reasonable' in order to exercise your rights.

Unless you own the lane, the legal boundary is not relevant since your rights are to be able to pass and repass and maintain the lane to be able to exercise those rights.

If it was me, I would send a letter along lines....

As you are aware we have a right to pass and repass over and along the lane neighbouring your property. Vegetation has encroached into the lane and is catching on vehicles passing and repassing and causing damage to vehicles. Also, of more immediate concern, the vegetation obstructed an ambulance using the lane for access to attend an emergency down the lane to the extent that the ambulance was unnecessarily delayed in attending the emergency.

In view of the above, I trust that you will take immediate action to remedy the encroachment and restore the unencumbered right to pass and repass that the users of the lane have fully enjoyed for many years and hence ensure that emergency services will not be inconvenienced again.

If the encroaching vegetation has not been cut back in 5 days, I hereby give notice that the encroaching vegetation will be cut back by the users of the lane as is their ancillary right as part of their right of way. In the meantime, we respectfully remind you that if damages are incurred as a result of your failure to prevent your vegetation encroaching into the lane, you will be responsible for damages.

-------------

If he doesn't cut it back and you have to, as is your right, you have to cover the costs.
mr sheen
 
Posts: 2092
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby stufe35 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:53 pm

Some confusion here I believe. You can't own the road and have a right of way over it.

Who owns the road on the section where the hedge is an issue ?

Who has right of way ?

If the owner of the hedge owns the lane I believe mr sheens advice is correct

If the the lane is owned by someone else I believe collaborates advice is correct

Is the actual boundary line clearly marked or easily determined ?
stufe35
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:06 pm

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby bluebell74 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:01 pm

Thanks for the replies


We the residents of the road are the owners, or at least I think so. We are responsible for maintaining it.
I'm confused now though given the RoW comment.

The boundary on the deeds is clearly the side of the house which is on the road we turn off to access our road. His argument I should that it isn't the real boundary and he has successfully had a street lamp removed which he manage do to prove was on his land.
bluebell74
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:49 pm

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby mr sheen » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:17 pm

It is most unlikely that you own the lane. Check your deeds and see if it is within the red outline...unlikely.

If you have a specified right of way and responsibility to maintain, you don't own it.

However if you have a right of way you can keep it clear of encroaching vegetation so that your rights are not impeded. If this is the case that you have a specified right of way it is irrelevant where his boundary is, you can cut back so that you can pass and repass without damage to vehicles but no more.

It is reasonable to give neighbouring owners to a right of way the option of removing their encroaching vegetation by giving notice that if they don't cut back, you will. But worth pointing out your rights and their liability for damages if they fail to keep vegetation out of, what is effectively....a roadway.

Arguing over where the legal boundary is will get the issue bogged down into a no win situation since he will probably force you to prove ownership and the position of the boundary....a costly prospect. The position of the boundary is irrelevant where it borders a roadway. The roadway should allow for passing of vehicles and legitimate users are able to remove anything that impedes their passing....but no more. You can't cut back to the boundary unless you own the land up to the boundary and this seems to be where the issue has become confused....and is irrelevant if the passing of traffic is the issue.

The easiest way to proceed is to avoid the issue of ownership and focus on the rights of way and the ancillary right to keep a right of way free of encroaching vegetation that impedes passing vehicles.
mr sheen
 
Posts: 2092
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:25 pm

Hi bluebell24,

you need to ascertain if the width of the ROW was defined before going any further.

have you investigated whether a copy of the original conveyance is held at HMLR?

in circumstances not dissimilar to what you describe my neighbours didn't - they just presumed that all the land between their side of the lane (abutted by their garden walls, fences, gates, etc) and where my hedge stood was part of the unregistered parcel over which they enjoyed a ROW.

only when I showed them that the original conveyance specified the width of their ROW did they appreciate that the land beyond this width - which stood beneath my hedge - was not part of the unregistered land at all but part of my property and their demands that I cut my hedge back to the trunk line stopped.

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby bluebell74 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:15 pm

Thanks for your replies. Much appreciated.

I agree that the position of the boundary is actually irrelevant and it's the access issue I should investigate. No specifics in the deeds as to the width of the lane, they bushes are beyond the road sign at the side and to me that would seem a sensible suggestion.

I have requested a title plan for the road

I was under the impression we owned it but as you say with right of way and maintenance it can't be the case. I will investigate further and come to your helpful info once I am a little more clued up!
bluebell74
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:49 pm

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:46 pm

Hi bluebell24,

the road sign...

since this is a private track the whereabouts of this sign does not indicate the width at all.

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby bluebell74 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:04 pm

How can i find out who owns the lane? It is a private road with our and other houses along the side. The neighbour in question lives on a council owned road so it's not him.
bluebell74
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:49 pm

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby stufe35 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:12 pm

How do you reach that conclusion ?
stufe35
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:06 pm

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:33 pm

bluebell74 wrote:How can i find out who owns the lane? It is a private road with our and other houses along the side. The neighbour in question lives on a council owned road so it's not him.
why would knowing this help?

if you've asked HMLR for the title plan why not for and additional £3 ask for the title register entries too - these will contain the name(s) of the owners.

I though the track was unregistered, though, so not sure how you've made such a request to HMLR in the first place?

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby bluebell74 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:46 pm

I haven't been able to request it, submitted a query to Land registry

To be honest I've been asked who owns it and i feel silly not knowing, which is why i thought i had better find out :)
bluebell74
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:49 pm

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby bluebell74 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:10 pm

stufe35 wrote:How do you reach that conclusion ?


i've seen his deeds and the red line is in line with his house wall and garden, does not include the road. That may not be conclusive ,but i'm sure when i've asked before about cutting them he'd have told me then instead of just telling me about the boundary
bluebell74
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:49 pm

Re: Defining a legal boundary

Postby stufe35 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:06 am

Is the actual boundary line clearly marked or easily determined ?
stufe35
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:06 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
Next

Return to Boundaries

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests