Copies of originally deeds any good?

Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby mango1 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:15 pm

I have just been sent a letter from my neighbour s solicitors saying we have to construct a fence by our drive and pay his 4k costs for determining his boundary.

The land registry title plan for our house has a map associated with it that shows the dimensions of both our plots along one side which places the boundary where the existing fence post is. (As measured by our surveyor)) He says they can not use that to determine the boundary and has found a 1960s map of a drain he says puts the boundary 2m into our drive. The copy he has sent me is so poor i cannot make anything out on it.

I have a copy of the original deeds and the original conveyance both have dimensions on. Also these deeds state that we own the northern boundary the land registry copy ommits this. The deeds have official inland revenue paperwork with them. I also have a list of an estate dated a few years later for the original lady that has a more detailed map with more dimensions on it also confirming the deed measure ments. Could i use these documents in court to prove the boundary is in the correct place?

The fence was replaced by him about 6years ago and although the post s at each end are in the correct place he has built it in a crescent shape to benefit him. He should not have built the fence as the boundary is not his. He now seems to be saying the boundary has moved and i should build a fence under supervision of the his surveyor.

His solicitor says i have to reply to him via snail mail . Can i just email his client directly as this will be much quicker than print ING out bundle s of documents.
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby despair » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:40 pm

you are clearly dealing with a land grabber

he certainly cannot charge you 4k for determining the boundary nor can he move the fence 2m onto your drive

you need to check very very carefully all mortgages,insurances,credit cards,union memberships for legal expenses cover
before you even think of dealing with this shyster

do not rush into this theres plenty of help on here to work through sensibly
and theres no rush to respond

if you respond at all i would simply say that 1st and last posts are very clearly in correct places but his client has sited the rest of the fence x metres
onto your land and you want it moved back into their clients land

do not send documents etc ....every letter you send his solicitor will cost your neighbour money
so you can send all sorts of questions...string it out
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby ukmicky » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:25 am

Firstly you do not have to do anything and his solicitor cant force you to build a fence or hire a surveyor. His solicitor knows he cant force you to do anything but a threat sometimes scares people into action. A court could order you both to jointly hire a surveyor if it got that far but not your neighbour or his solicitor.


The boundary being yours does not mean he cant build a fence on his land. Legally the boundary according to your deeds being yours does not mean you have to fence it either, unless you have a covenant saying you have to and you are the original owner of your property. However as he removed the old fence he would be barred from enforcing any covenant relating to it.


For your measurements on your title plan to set the fence line in stone that cant be argued against your deeds will need to say its a determined boundary under section 60 of the land registration act 2002. If it is determined ,it then gets simple to deal with and a surveyor will come and measure it all out and the fence will move to where he says .


If its not determined you have a general boundary and all the evidence supplied by you and your neighbour will be looked at and considered . The quality of those documents are important and the details on your current title plan and the original deeds will carry quite a lot of legal weight . Anything he supplies will also carry legal weight . How much weight each piece of evidence you and your neighbour supplies will be determined by where its come from ,what's on it , and how well it can be viewed .

They will also provided they are asked to, take into account adverse possession laws and look at how long the current boundary has been in its current position. If you can prove the 2 end posts are in the same place as they were 10 years ago then under current adverse possession laws the court would not change their position . Everything in-between the 2 posts however would need to be determined if its position has changed in the last 10 years.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby mr sheen » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:45 am

The info given by other contributors is correct. The 'ownership' of a boundary is a red herring and irrelevant since anyone can fence their own land. Are you disputing the position of the current fence? Or do you believe the current fence marks the boundary?

If you are happy with the current fence marking the boundary, I would reply endlessly as indicated by Despair since these cases rarely end up in court and if they do Judges hate them since boundaries should be sorted by neighbours, and only if it goes to court will the issue of costs become relevant since they can't force you to pay for anything without a court order. If you agree with current position of fence.....My response via snail mail would be along the lines......

We acknowledge receipt of your letter dated....xyz.

The evidence we have does not support the assertions your client is making and the position of the fence he erected 6 years ago does not support the assertions he is now making.

Please forward a copy of the evidence you are relying on that compels us to erect a fence on our land.

Surely you are aware that where a person makes the choice to engage a professional for advice, such as an independent surveyor, the person engaging the professional pays for those services.


However....I get an inclin that you may have initiated the dispute due to the current fence...in which case you would have all to prove to get it moved...which is the case?
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby MacadamB53 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:45 am

Hi mango1,

I have just been sent a letter from my neighbour's solicitors saying we have to construct a fence by our drive and pay his 4k costs for determining his boundary.

was this totally out-of-the-blue or had there been prior communication with the neighbour or his sols?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby mango1 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:50 pm

Sorry for the delay.
I asked him to straighten his fence after my surveyor found the boundary to be a straight line with the fence post at each end in the correct place. He replaced the fence and has built it in a large arc encroaching approx 60cm in the middle. Our deeds say we "own the boundary fence to the north".

He has used his plans from his conveyance when his property was split into two (not the original boundary forming conveyance). His surveyor says the boundary is up to 2 meters into our drive which has been tarmacked since at least 2000, probably decades more. He is basically saying give us more land or we will take you to court and that will cost us lost of money.

I pruned the hedge which is on myside of the fence that he errected and he shouted out the window of his car at me that I was committing criminal damage. He has sent me two solicitors letters in two weeks about the hedge! He now considers that he owns all the land his surveyors report says. Should he not have used the conveyance of his properties' original plot to find the boundary?

Also the original conveyance formed a dimensioned triangle , which his surveyor is saying is a right angle, this breaks Pythagoras theorem. I have also have aerial photos of this fence before and after he rebuilt it and you can see the re-positioning. I have put all this to his solicitor but they just ignore me. I also found the plan attached to his neighbour's conveyance when his plot was split, this shows the boundary to be 4ft shorter than his surveyor's report says. Again they are ignoring this.

They have said we have to agree to a meeting of experts in 14 days or they will take us to court, they seem to have timed this to coincide with the arrival of our new born baby, they seem to think we will just hand over more land. Does a meeting of experts assume equal expertise from the two parties ? With GCSE maths you can disprove his report and with A level maths, just solving this dimensioned triangle you can prove my surveyors report.

Also do - the experts have to agree, obviously if they are stating from 2 meters in and "negotiating" for my drive I am worried they could meet 1/2 way and we couldn't get out of our house!

As an aside can these cases be heard in the small claims court ? The value of land is probably less than 10k and it seems very unjust that the cost of the justice system can be used to extract more land off people in this way. I would like a third party to look at the facts of this case an make a judgment, will that mean spending 10s of thousands of pounds if not 100s?
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby despair » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:44 am

i have told you from the outset your neighbour is a bully and a land grabber
i doubt in this country land is only worth 10k these days depends where you live

tell your neighbour ...take me to court

do not be bluffed by him or his claimed experts

you have very clear original documents that is what a judge will look at
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby Morgan Sweet » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:23 am

I agree with the original poster that it is wrong that there seems no way to get a decision without high costs.

I believe that a joint declaration of the boundary may be the cheapest option, I understand that you both split the costs and agree to accept what an independent Chartered Surveyor says where the boundary is.

On the citizens advice web site they do mention boundary disputes and I thought that they could be used to settle a dispute especially if the value of the land is less than £10k but when I tried that route myself I did not find a way of using it. Perhaps others can advise you if this route is available and how to use it.

I would not respond by saying "take me to court", all correspondence will be looked at prior to any hearing and you should appear to be willing to accept independent mediation.
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby arborlad » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:13 am

mango1 wrote:Sorry for the delay.
I asked him to straighten his fence after my surveyor found the boundary to be a straight line with the fence post at each end in the correct place. He replaced the fence and has built it in a large arc encroaching approx 60cm in the middle. Our deeds say we "own the boundary fence to the north".

He has used his plans from his conveyance when his property was split into two (not the original boundary forming conveyance). His surveyor says the boundary is up to 2 meters into our drive which has been tarmacked since at least 2000, probably decades more. He is basically saying give us more land or we will take you to court and that will cost us lost of money.




If this gets to court, everything will be looked at, both paper and physical features in place at various times, including ownership, before deciding how much weight can be given to each piece of evidence.

Boundaries are always presumed to be straight unless there is a good and obvious reason for them not to be, a dogleg could be to include/exclude all or part of an outhouse, if you own land that adjoins a highway that is curved - your boundary will be curved
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby despair » Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:02 pm

DITTO

do not be bullied by this land grabber
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby mango1 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:38 pm

Thanks for the help. Another twist - the neighbour and his surveyor used to live over the road from each other so it seems they may well be friends. This could explain the dodgy survey and why they want a quick meeting of surveyor to settle it. Is this worth raising as a concern to their solicitor or is it ok to get your mates to do boundary survey s? Seems fishy to me.
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby despair » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:51 pm

we all know its fishy and smells of rats
get hold of areial photos from the library or a history society for your area
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby mango1 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:05 pm

I have high resolution satellite photos shows the boundary exactly where it should be a few years before he moved it.
My question was more should I raise it as an issue would the court or rics care that they could well be friends?
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby mr sheen » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:16 pm

If the surveyor has put his name, qualifications etc to a formal report it's irrelevant whether they know each other.

Although a good move would be to request a jointly instructed single specialist land surveyor is engaged and paid for 50/50 and until this report is received there is no point having a meeting.

Or....If you have lots of evidence including aerial photos which are good evidence, then why not agree to his proposed meeting. You are not compelled to bring any specific specialist, you can represent your self.
Since he is making claims, he has the burden of proof.
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Postby mango1 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:27 pm

Yes I like the idea of a specialist land surveyor. Would they look at the photos as well?
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