Trespassing

Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby asprint » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:01 pm

jdfi wrote:Could it be that they plan to use the ADR meeting to give you a telling off re CCTV, and possibly get you to sign a document re stopping it's use?


Quiet possibly but of course to get any info I have to go through my solicitor at his hourly rate.
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby asprint » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:10 pm

arsie wrote:Hmmm. Seems you need to reign in your own solicitor. He should not exacerbate the situation by issuing threats that you have not authorised him to state. Because this Earl is a fellow solicitor doesn't mean your own solicitor should respond on your behalf without your prior approval!

Without knowing more of the alleged trespass it is hard to say if ADR might be a good idea. If the other side consider there is a dispute - that's the D of ADR - what is it? Trespass or the CCTV? This needs clarifying before you enter into ADR, I would have thought. I would ask the other side what is the subject of this proposed ADR and that you await hearing. I would be wary of meetings with both solicitors etc. on full hourly + expenses :shock:

For our benefit, can you explain this alleged trespass and the background? Appreciate that this is a public forum, but what has happened is what has happened so it can't harm going public.


Thank you for your reply and advice.

I had already decided for myself that I need to know exactly what it is that they are disputing and need the ADR for but of course that can only be achieved through my own solicitor at his hourly rate.

At this stage I would prefer not to disclose the details, but do appreciate the response that has been provided which I do find helpful.
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby arsie » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:17 pm

asprint wrote:I had already decided for myself that I need to know exactly what it is that they are disputing and need the ADR for but of course that can only be achieved through my own solicitor at his hourly rate.

I don't see why you cannot write yourself to the other side asking about this. I would also point out that if they consider themselves in dispute with you then they should have the courtesy of addressing this matter in the first instance to you. If this Earl is acting for them then obviously it is their tactic to cause you legal expense, when he is possibly acting for free as a favour.

There is obviously more to this than meets the eye as regards the trespass. Objecting to CCTV is avoiding this main issue. However, if you cannot give more detail, then neither can we do much more than address generalities in return, though I do appreciate your position.

edit: my brief search indicates that domestic CCTV is excluded from the DPA - see http://www.nfh.org.uk/resources/Articles/cctv/index.php
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby MacadamB53 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:20 pm

Hi j̶d̶f̶i̶asprint,

the trespassing has stopped so job done and move on, yes?

what, no? why not?

oh, cos the perpetrator wants to keep the battle going until he has a victory?

just bin the letter and ignore him.

Kind regards, Mac
edit: corrected my salutation to address the right forum member (arsie - thanks for spotting the gaff ;) )
Last edited by MacadamB53 on Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby arsie » Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:32 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi jdfi,

the trespassing has stopped so job done and move on, yes?

what, no? why not?

oh, cos the perpetrator wants to keep the battle going until he has a victory?

just bin the letter and ignore him.

jdfi? What did he do?!

With this alternative approach the OP still needs to tell his solicitor to shut up shop.
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby ukmicky » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:29 am

1. Would the fact that you are not registered as a data controller prevent your images being used in court. No because releasing the data to police or a court to provide evidence of a civil or criminal wrong would be allowed even if you are not registered as a data controller.

2. Would you currently get into trouble for failing to register yourself as a data controller. Currently highly unlikely at present as the current UK law wasn't written to cover situations like yours and at present they are not taking people in your situation to court. You will however probably find that in the future amendments will be made to the act to cover situations where home CCTV use falls outside the scope of domestic use.

You should however follow the basic principles of the act and keep any recording safe and secure, not place them on the internet or let anyone other than yourself the police ,solicitor or a court view them. You should also not store them on a computer that can be hacked over the internet.

Also the ruling said that your images should not in order to remain under domestic use cover public spaces . Public spaces does not include your private property or your neighbours property . Could public spaces be expanded to cover your neighbours property is a question that there is currently no answer to but it is likely they would expand it to include your neighbours property.

3. Can you continue filming without be registered as a data controller, yes but you should enquire about registering .
Last edited by ukmicky on Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby arsie » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:46 am

So, in summary, apart from your being prudent the DPA is not applicable (as I discovered) and is not being extended to domestic CCTV anytime soon. If the trespass was real and they've stopped and don't resume (but you won't tell us the background, so who knows) your issue is resolved.

Apart from telling your solicitor to cease and desist (and why), you are free to leave ;)
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby MacadamB53 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:54 am

Hi asprint,

you could just kill whole issue dead by running some masking / pixelating software or even just physically masking off part of the lens so that nobody is identifiable in the recorded footage unless they're stood on your land.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby jdfi » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:16 am

arsie wrote:jdfi? What did he do?!

With this alternative approach the OP still needs to tell his solicitor to shut up shop.


Good job the ex wife isn't on here otherwise we'd have the forums longest ever post
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby asprint » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:27 am

Thanks for all of the replies and advice.

I did speak directly to the ICO about the current use of domestic cctv's and they confirmed that any cctv images that are recorded beyond your own boundary, which I imaging will impact most domestic use, have to be registered as they are now in breach of the DPA since the European ruling last November, https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/cctv/

However, they did draw my attention to the caveat in the final paragraph: However, we recognise that individuals need time to adjust to these developments in the law. We do not propose to take action during the coming year against an individual for failing to register their use of domestic CCTV cameras following this judgement, except in exceptional cases. If the position changes we will update this guidance.

So it seems that until the end of the year you do not have/need to register but from next year it looks like you will have to or risk being in breach of DPA which I assume will require the current £35 fee also being applicable?

Have received a response from the other party's solicitor with the usual rebuttals, denials and rhetoric despite that they have agreed unconditionally to cease trespassing onto my property, so success and hopefully an end to the matter.

However, they have stated that the cctv images are in breach of the DPA, as they include part of the neighbours property, and that I must confine my images to within my own boundary. So I am left somewhat confused at the moment, in the light of the above, as to weather I am in breach and actually have to do anything at the moment or if they are just trying to intimidate me?

The cctv system has a user set motion matrix which is set to only activate recording if somebody actually comes within my boundary, including the previous 10 seconds prior to activation. However, according to the ICO that does not exclude you from the DPA because whilst recording may only be activated within one's boundary if during that time it is recording public or private areas you will be in breach. Though a further extract from https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/cctv/ CCTV used on your property will be exempt from the Data Protection Act unless you are capturing footage of individuals outside your property. implies that the DPA only applies if you are capturing individuals outside your property and not just images of public and private spaces and property? Though, I guess they could claim that the 10 seconds that is included before actual trespassing is capturing individuals outside my boundary? A bit of a mess at the moment.
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby arsie » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:04 am

Agreed a bit of a mess. Another example of European twaddle being followed to the letter of (their) law by our so-called public servants who are really just compliant jobsworths even if they do have a top board of the great and good in overall charge of the ICO.

I have just the same situation, which I am sure many hundreds of thousands of law-abiding property owners also have. The main camera down our drive likewise cannot help but 'see' the public highway and some snippets of neighbours' property. Like yours there is a motion screen mask that you can set so it is only turned on by motion on our property.

Mac's idea of a tailor-made physical mask (remember those dipped-beam cut outs that you put on car headlights for driving on the wrong side of the road?) is good in theory however bags I not be the one to climb up ladders with a walkie-talkie or mobile phone and test/fit sticky paper while SWMBO watches the screen and says 'left a bit' 'up a bit' 'completely wrong you fool' etc etc

Good to hear you have a result asprint but I for one will be doing absolutely nothing to change my CCTV and I certainly won't be registering with the ICO anytime soon. Hopefully we will be out of the EU in a year or two and see more common sense laws. There will still be many entrenched jobsworths in post :( My idea :idea: is to re-train them all to become border guards :mrgreen:
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby arsie » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:25 pm

p.s.
Simplistically, light travels in straight lines. But I don't think 'masking' a CCTV cam to cut out parts of the view will work. It only reduces the total amount of light received. Photographers?
Last edited by arsie on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby Collaborate » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:30 pm

arsie wrote:p.s.
Although light does travel in a straight line, I don't think 'masking' a CCTV cam to cut out parts of the view will work. It will only reduce the total amount of light received. Photographers?


I think you're right if you stick the masking tape to the glass of the camera lens. However if the lens is recessed, even slightly, shouldn't it be OK?
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby arsie » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:49 pm

Ah you caught me changing my post!
I think rays of light from unwanted parts of the view will still get through e.g. pinhole camera.

(A quick google came up with this OMG http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19346)
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Re: Using CCTV to stop trespass

Postby Roblewis » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:14 pm

It really depends on the angle of view of the lens. Lens hoods do restrict wide angle lenses to a degree but it is very much suck it and see. Talk to your camera supplier.
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