Have I lost the land?

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby xxredmaxx » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:33 pm

Now I am really worried....

The neighbour has said that they will register the property with HMLR.

If the title plan is issued and it shows the boundary down the middle then they may consider a deal.

I have just looked at the OS planning map for our properties and it shows the boundary with the fence in its current position i.e diagonally across my garden.
I understand OS are mapping what is there so do HMLR use the map of 2017 for first registration and if so do they not cross reference with adjacent title of earlier dates?

If they issue a title using the OS map with the fence in ts current position that will just make the neighbour believe the land is his.

have I misunderstood what HMLR do?
How do I stop this?
xxredmaxx
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:56 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby Eliza » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:46 pm

You are still at the stage of gathering facts by the sound of it.

Do ring Land Registry and ask to speak to someone specifically about this and see what they have to say.

The other option for contacting Land Registry re this is to go onto http://www.moneysavingexpert.com to the housing sub-forum on there (it's called "house-buying, renting and selling"). There is a thread on there specifically for Land Registry queries. A rep. comes on regularly to answer those queries.

I suggest you don't waste any time. It looks like this fence was put in place some time between 2000 and 2005 from what you say. It might be helpful to see if you can get Googlemaps photos for the intervening years in order to pin down more exactly when it was put in place.
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....
Eliza
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby Morgan Sweet » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:54 pm

Regarding the transfer of the land, this is a last resort to help settle the dispute, not necessary to retake actual possession of the land.

An up to date OS map to the same scale would show a difference between the physical boundary (fence) and the legal boundary as show on the LR plan. This is clear evidence that the fence is not where the legal boundary is. This area of land is in dispute. If the neighbour offered to buy this land from you a transfer document (TP1) and an AP1 would be completed by a solicitor probably with the help of a chartered surveyor to transfer the land from your legal title in your name (plus spouse if joint owned) to your neighbour and this land would be provided with a new title number in your neighbour's name. Boundary dispute now resolved he has bought disputed land from you and has title to it in his name with a new title number. Scenario that you can't get him off/run out of money and want to sell your house. You could also transfer land in dispute (no money involved) to a new owner (you) and it will get a new title number. You can sell house with dispute now resolved as you keep disputed land as the paper title owner. He still has the problem if he sells since when a conveyancer looks at the Title of his property he will notice a strip of land between the two properties with another new Title number as you as the legal owner. Neighbour now has a problem if his buyer wants it resolved as he will then have to approach you to buy it. (Pilman, a knowledgeable and helpful contributor suggested a similar thing to me on another thread and I spoke to sol. and surveyor and they agreed this is a solution to a dispute in order for you to sell (although you have not got physical possession of the land).

This is about protecting what is your legal Title. You do not have to rely on this yet, you need to gather clear evidence together and write to neighbour with evidence and ask him to move fence. Suggest/Offer mediation etc. and problem if he sells house. If he responds positively and wants to negotiate it is all in your favour. If he flatly refuses and suggests he has legal title to it write back asking for written evidence of it. If nothing is produced then see Solicitor experienced in property disputes who might suggest using a Chartered Land Surveyor. If your evidence is correct solicitor may just act on what his experience guides him to do, a Surveyor could act as an expert witness only if neighbour wishes to fight it.

As Eliza says you are at an early fact gathering stage, gather the evidence then act. Do ring the LR, although they will not give legal advice and probably will advise you to consult a solicitor.
Morgan Sweet
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:47 pm

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby xxredmaxx » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:34 pm

Ok Understood

Still not sure what HMLR will issue as a title plan to my neighbour.
Is it possible for HMLR to issue a title plan showing a different legal boundary to my title plan?

I would have thought they would consult adjoining title plans before issuing a new registration for a property?

Any help on this please?
xxredmaxx
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby Morgan Sweet » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:17 pm

I do not know the answer to your question, however you have a Title plan for your registered land. I would not have thought that the neighbour's proposed Title plan could overlap yours. To register his land he will probably use a solicitor (who will know far more than I or probably anyone else on the forum) and I suggest that you write to the neighbour pointing out that his fence is not in the correct position as soon as possible. If this does not lead to an acceptable resolution then it may be best to contact a solicitor experienced in these matters.
Morgan Sweet
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:47 pm

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby MacadamB53 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:33 pm

Hi Morgan Sweet,

If your LR plan clearly shows a difference with respect to reference points ie long established stone wall/buildings etc and you are not arguing over the thickness of the lines on the plans then the fence is in the wrong position.

when one appreciates that each and every line plotted on an OS map has a % chance of being plotted in the wrong place relative to the other lines - and the same for just one end of a line - then one will understand that it isn't helpful to suggest that it's just that the thickness of a line represents rather more than the thickness of a fence when scaled which needs to be considered by the OP.

so this c3m discrepancy could quite easily be explained by if the air raid shelter has been plotted, say, 1m too close to the true whereabouts of the fence, and the end of the fence 1m too close to the true whereabouts of the air raid shelter, so that they appear to be much more in line with one another on the map.

it would take a qualified surveyor to check the overall accuracy of the OS map - assuming there are sufficient extant structures - before the above could be discounted as an explanation.

as maddening as it may be, our OS maps ain't that good - and that's why HMLR make it extremely clear that the title plans they produce using OS maps only show the general whereabouts of the property it is for rather than its precise location (and therefore it's boundaries).

kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6037
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby Eliza » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:10 pm

OP needs to clarify with Land Registry, but I believe the "general boundary rule" they frequently quote is deemed by them to be accurate to about 1 metre. So, with this fence being 3 metres away from the boundary, then it would appear quite clear the neighbour has gone beyond any possibility of quoting the "general boundary rule" in their favour.
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....
Eliza
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby MacadamB53 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:59 pm

Eliza wrote:OP needs to clarify with Land Registry, but I believe the "general boundary rule" they frequently quote is deemed by them to be accurate to about 1 metre. So, with this fence being 3 metres away from the boundary, then it would appear quite clear the neighbour has gone beyond any possibility of quoting the "general boundary rule" in their favour.
they don't quote that so not sure where you got that from
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6037
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby jonahinoz » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:59 am

Hi,

I have experienced a boundary change by OS, which they admitted but could not explain ... and were not concerned about. OS told me that their map's boundaries were based on topographical features, which in my case seemed to have included a non existent fence across a lane ... or maybe a line on the conveyance map when the LA tenant exercised his Right to Buy. In the end, I gave up, told my neighbour that he could put up a better fence, and I would not object. It now seems that my last house has a ROW through his brick built shed, with the responsibility of maintaining it's floor.

LR told me that they are required to base their plans on OS maps. During a visit to my Planning Office, I got the impression that the maps used for planning applications were passed to OS to update their maps. But just an impression. I was talking to a draughtsman who was adding details of a recently approved planning application to a large (small?) scale map. Those were the days when Joe Public could get past the receptionist in the foyer.

Whatever, it seems that Morgan Sweet's neighbour is prepared to fight to the death (literally?) to retain his garden. Or he could die from natural causes tomorrow. It's going to happen sometime, and with human nature being what it is, his daughter will either want to sell her inheritance, or move in herself. If she decides to sell, she will not want a dispute delaying the sale. Question ... is there any way of agreeing with the daughter (and any siblings) that the boundary is where MS thinks it is, and in return MS will not disturb his neighbour's enjoyment of the ground in dispute, and will not demand possession until his neighbour vacates the property for whatever reason?

If the neighbour's property is not registered, then somebody, somewhere, will be holding the paper deeds. It may be that MS's solicitor or lender may be holding his paper deeds.

Back to my own experience ... I visited my local County Archives (hoops to be jumped, as a Reader's ticket must be obtained in advance). I was able to study historical OS maps, which showed that the boundary of my neighbour's property changed between two issues of the OS maps, memory says between 1952 and 1962, but memory could be wrong. OS can't remember why, either. Photocopies of the Archive's maps cost pennies each.

Google "ERRORS ON OS MAPS".

John W
jonahinoz
 
Posts: 1346
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:15 pm

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby xxredmaxx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:10 am

MacadamB53 wrote:
Eliza wrote:OP needs to clarify with Land Registry, but I believe the "general boundary rule" they frequently quote is deemed by them to be accurate to about 1 metre. So, with this fence being 3 metres away from the boundary, then it would appear quite clear the neighbour has gone beyond any possibility of quoting the "general boundary rule" in their favour.
they don't quote that so not sure where you got that from


Mac


I understand that we are dealing with a 1:1250 map on A4. 1mm = 1.25 m.

The determination of the legal boundary is in my case I believe easy becasue there are physical structures outside of the two properties in dispute that have been mapped for years. Roads, air raid shelters, 3rd party boundary and an access road to 3rd party property all act as reference points.
Yes I also understand that on an individual basis each LR title plan shows a general position of a piece of property but its general position is relative to the general position of other properties, markers and topographical features.
Its the relative position to other properties that is the starting point to determine boundaries etc.

Its then up to neighbours to agree from there.

In my case i have no desire to get down to the last mm, cm etc. On the other hand I am not minded to concede c25 sq metres if I don't need to.

The title deed clearly shows the party wall between the properties as the boundary which in turn sets out the garden boundary in a perpendicular line from the rear of the the 9" brick party wall. This means the boundary can only ever be 9" in the wrong place before it encroaches on one party or the other's land

I should also point out that the deviation of the physical boundary is so significant that the 2017 OS map has shown it in its current position. I must say they have done a good job in plotting its actual position relative to the fixed structures so whilst I accept your point as an abstract one the fact is on the ground its pretty darn easy to set out works e.g. fences, using fixed points as datums in my view especially with modern mapping techniques, satellites etc.

Given the comparison between latest OS map and my title deed based on a 1986 map its clear the physical boundary has significantly moved with no change of title to the land.

I have evidence that suggests the current fence was not in place before 2000. The fence appears in a photo in 2005.

Thats my starting point to join this forum looking for info on if I have any rights, if so what are they and how can I exercise them.

I dont know what to do and looking for assistance based on experience or knowledge of legal procedures etc.
xxredmaxx
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby arborlad » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:39 am

xxredmaxx wrote:
arborlad wrote:
xxredmaxx wrote:I can honestly say that I have paid no attention to the fence and just presumed it to be where it is roughly on the title plan of the property we purchased.




What type of fence is it?


Its a willow panel type.
From the house end the boundary starts as wall about 8' long at an angle of about 45 degrees into our garden.
The willow fence then starts at the end of the wall and goes down the length of the garden at a further angle from the party line
There are then 8 panels 6' wide.




The time to take action on any perceived errors in your purchase is as soon as you become aware of them, even if you allow for the fencing being obscured by trees and shrubs, an 8' long wall running at that angle would be hard to miss - can you estimate the age of the wall, do the materials match with the main house?

There is a rule of thumb in these circumstances - you saw what you bought and bought what you saw.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7386
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby Morgan Sweet » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:38 am

There is a rule of thumb in these circumstances - you saw what you bought and bought what you saw.[/quote]

I ask you where there is any legal presumption to support your rule of thumb?
That rule of thumb is what the land grabber hopes that you will accept.

You buy your legal Title as shown on the legal LR plan. If you can satisfy a LR Tribunal or a Court you will get your and back, (but not necessarily all of your costs).
Morgan Sweet
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:47 pm

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby arborlad » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:03 am

Morgan Sweet wrote:There is a rule of thumb in these circumstances - you saw what you bought and bought what you saw.


I ask you where there is any legal presumption to support your rule of thumb?
That rule of thumb is what the land grabber hopes that you will accept.

You buy your legal Title as shown on the legal LR plan. If you can satisfy a LR Tribunal or a Court you will get your and back, (but not necessarily all of your costs).[/quote]



Conveyancer is my source:

Conveyancer wrote:
Can we please get away from the idea that boundaries on LR plans are accurate to within 20 inches or indeed any other length? It may be the case that, according to scale, the OS plan is only accurate to within a certain distance and that the lines on the plan necessarily must have thickness. What does the Land Registration Act say?

(1) The boundary of a registered estate as shown for the purposes of the register is a general boundary, unless shown as determined under this section.
(2) A general boundary does not determine the exact line of the boundary.

No mention there of accuracy within a given limit. So, what is the effect? First, it is saying that (in the absence of a note on the register) if the boundary shown on the LR plan follows a boundary feature that nothing is to be inferred as to where the boundary runs in relation to that feature. In most cases, and particularly residential ones, that is going to be the end of the story. However, the rule has a wider application and takes in what I call the "what you see is what you get" rule. This rule, which is more a rule of thumb than a rule of law, says that, within reason, you own what you occupy if you reasonably believe you own it. It works both ways to include what a title plan suggests you do not own (if you occupy it) and to exclude what the plan suggests you do own (if you do not occupy it), and applies equally to registered and unregistered land.

The general boundaries rule is also relative. In the case of the boundaries of small terraced houses there is only a small margin for error. Out in the country the boundary between fields may be a hedgerow or dyke into which you could fit a row of terraced houses.

In many respects it would be nice if the boundaries between properties could indeed be determined to the nearest inch. If we ask why the system of land registration does not achieve this when it seems it could, the answer is that when a property is presented for first registration, the LR cannot be expected to improve on what is shown in the pre-registration deeds except where appropriate to make minor adjustments to fit in with the OS plan. The system of unregistered conveyancing was private and on the whole the penny-pinching property owning classes did not wish to incur the expense of having accurate plans drawn up.

It is quite impractical to suggest that the system can be improved. Even if we ignore all the difficulties that would be associated with setting accurate boundaries for existing registered titles - imagine all the arguments! - the expense does not bear contemplation. There are 22,000,000 registered titles. Assuming very conservatively that the cost of establishing the exact boundary of each registered title (probably impossible) amounted to £250 then the over all cost would be £5,500,000,000. I do not know about anyone else, but I can think of a lot better things that five and a half billion pounds could be spent on.

We also need to bear in mind that strictness leads to injustice. If English law has a genius it is a realisation that this is the case. It would undoubtedly be the case that many would lose out if required to keep to what is shown on accurate plans.

Lasers are not needed to measure land accurately. The Great Pyramid at Giza is only a couple of inches out.

Whether owners should be required to repair run down properties goes to the heart of the extent to which government should interfere in people's affairs. I have found that generally decent honest people have double standards even if they do not realise it. Many demand that government should get off their backs, but when they are affected by something that someone else has in mind that they do not like are very quick to suggest that government should get very firmly on their backs.
[/quote]
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7386
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby jonahinoz » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:05 am

There is a rule of thumb in these circumstances - you saw what you bought and bought what you saw

Hi,

Does that work both ways? Does that rule-of-thumb immediately legitimise the land grab carried out while the previous owner was absent, or even dead?

Or what about the few m2 of land grabbed just before you bought your house.

A house is standing empty. The neighbour angles the boundary fence across a couple of metres, rotovates his entire garden including the new acquired bit, and advertises the house for sale. You view, and buy what you see. The empty house is then inherited by a distant relative of the absent owner, who has never visited the house before. There is one winner, and one loser who doesn't know he has lost anything until maybe years later. How can that be right?

Were either of the two houses being discussed by MS leasehold at the time of any of the sales mentioned? And if so, does it alter anything?

John W
jonahinoz
 
Posts: 1346
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:15 pm

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby arborlad » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:33 am

jonahinoz wrote:There is a rule of thumb in these circumstances - you saw what you bought and bought what you saw

Hi,

Does that work both ways? Does that rule-of-thumb immediately legitimise the land grab carried out while the previous owner was absent, or even dead?

Or what about the few m2 of land grabbed just before you bought your house.

A house is standing empty. The neighbour angles the boundary fence across a couple of metres, rotovates his entire garden including the new acquired bit, and advertises the house for sale. You view, and buy what you see. The empty house is then inherited by a distant relative of the absent owner, who has never visited the house before. There is one winner, and one loser who doesn't know he has lost anything until maybe years later. How can that be right?

Were either of the two houses being discussed by MS leasehold at the time of any of the sales mentioned? And if so, does it alter anything?

John W




You have to ensure you are comparing like-for-like - an obviously new fence as opposed to an obviously old fence, and, crucially (depending on evidence) an even older (and perhaps original) wall.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7386
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
PreviousNext

Return to Boundaries

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 4 guests