Have I lost the land?

Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby xxredmaxx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:45 am

The time to take action on any perceived errors in your purchase is as soon as you become aware of them, even if you allow for the fencing being obscured by trees and shrubs, an 8' long wall running at that angle would be hard to miss - can you estimate the age of the wall, do the materials match with the main house?

There is a rule of thumb in these circumstances - you saw what you bought and bought what you saw.[/quote]

I became aware of the fence position only in the last two weeks - that is the truth.
I cleared the end of my garden that was overgrown on the ground and overhung by fruit trees to create more space. I looked back at the house form the end of the garden and for the first time noticed the fence is not on the dividing line between the houses.
I did not immediately jump to conclusions and found the title plan and only then did I see the contradiction.
What action can I take? Should I ask the solicitor why they never instructed me to check the boundaries? Is it part of their responsibility to instruct me when handling the purchase?
Has the previous owner misrepresented knowing the the fence is not where the legal boundary is?

The wall is not made of bricks from the house which was built 1923.
The bricks are part of the garage build that was erected in 2003. They match perfectly.

I understand a previous owner (not my seller) built the wall after a dispute with my current neighbour to stop bushes and ivy encroaching. It appears he made a big error by conceding the land. The neighbour has admitted they did not get along at all.
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby despair » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:54 pm

Your best way fwd is as someone else suggested

Create an agreement in writing witnessed and signed that when the current owner /occupants die or sell up that the correct boundary line can be re instated by yourself in line with your titke deeds

It appears the daughter is open to that
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby xxredmaxx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:20 pm

despair wrote:Your best way fwd is as someone else suggested

Create an agreement in writing witnessed and signed that when the current owner /occupants die or sell up that the correct boundary line can be re instated by yourself in line with your titke deeds

It appears the daughter is open to that


I am open to that or leasing the land back.
Its the term "correct boundary" that bothers me.

I presume that along with the agreement to return the land we would have to agree the boundary position which would mean a description in writing that is unambiguous?
That means the use of a land surveyor which is fine by me.
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby despair » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:44 pm

sounds like a good plan
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby Eliza » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:53 pm

xxredmaxx wrote:
I understand a previous owner (not my seller) built the wall after a dispute with my current neighbour to stop bushes and ivy encroaching. It appears he made a big error by conceding the land. The neighbour has admitted they did not get along at all.


Well I suppose one thing is clear now. That is you no longer have to wonder what to think of this neighbour/give them benefit of doubt. Looks like they'll try any tactic going to land grab from someone else. In this case that means you.

So, if you're prepared to let them "borrow" your land until they die you need to make sure and certain in absolutely cast iron terms that you have a very very very clear indeed legal promise you get your land back then. Also that you safeguard yourself by getting in there literally the very day after they've gone (be it into an old persons home or the nearest undertaker) and take your land back on the spot without fail (ie by moving that fence).

Meanwhile they "owe" you one for borrowing the use of some of your land rent-free and what would they be proposing to give you in recompense for that?
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby Morgan Sweet » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:10 pm

This is what I suggested you offer to the neighbour when I suggested a joint declaration of the boundary. You share the cost and both abide by the decision where he says the lawful boundary is. The cost can be high but if it is a straight line with just two points to be identified or even just one point if you can agree on the other then I would have thought with their GPS Trimble machines that are now referenced to the LR plans it would not be a long job. There is NO rule of thumb, either the fence is in the correct position or it is not. A Chartered Land Surveyor who can also act as an expert witness would be most qualified to do this.
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby xxredmaxx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:22 pm

Eliza wrote:
xxredmaxx wrote:
I understand a previous owner (not my seller) built the wall after a dispute with my current neighbour to stop bushes and ivy encroaching. It appears he made a big error by conceding the land. The neighbour has admitted they did not get along at all.


Well I suppose one thing is clear now. That is you no longer have to wonder what to think of this neighbour/give them benefit of doubt. Looks like they'll try any tactic going to land grab from someone else. In this case that means you.

So, if you're prepared to let them "borrow" your land until they die you need to make sure and certain in absolutely cast iron terms that you have a very very very clear indeed legal promise you get your land back then. Also that you safeguard yourself by getting in there literally the very day after they've gone (be it into an old persons home or the nearest undertaker) and take your land back on the spot without fail (ie by moving that fence).

Meanwhile they "owe" you one for borrowing the use of some of your land rent-free and what would they be proposing to give you in recompense for that?


I was thinking in return for my offer to let them "borrow" the land they pay all costs. - simples
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby xxredmaxx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:25 pm

Morgan Sweet wrote:This is what I suggested you offer to the neighbour when I suggested a joint declaration of the boundary. You share the cost and both abide by the decision where he says the lawful boundary is. The cost can be high but if it is a straight line with just two points to be identified or even just one point if you can agree on the other then I would have thought with their GPS Trimble machines that are now referenced to the LR plans it would not be a long job. There is NO rule of thumb, either the fence is in the correct position or it is not. A Chartered Land Surveyor who can also act as an expert witness would be most qualified to do this.


It really is one point when you put it like that.
One end of the boundary is definitely on our houses and has to be in the middle. Its really is not hard to agree the point there - its obvious.
The other end is where the perpendicular line ends on the adjoining boundary which is a school.
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby MacadamB53 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:55 pm

Hi xxredmaxx,

your sols asked you to confirm you were happy to proceed after providing you with a copy of the title plan and SPIF.

the title plan showed a straight line where in the real world the related boundary feature followed a shallow arc.

your predecessor told you in the SPIF that 1. the boundary features had not been replaced/moved in the last 20 years and 2. you were not buying any land beyond the boundary features.

you confirmed you were happy to proceed.

which bit of the above suggests your neighbour is "borrowing" some of the land you recognised during purchase as the land you were buying?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby arborlad » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:33 pm

xxredmaxx wrote:The wall is not made of bricks from the house which was built 1923.
The bricks are part of the garage build that was erected in 2003. They match perfectly.

I understand a previous owner (not my seller) built the wall after a dispute with my current neighbour to stop bushes and ivy encroaching. It appears he made a big error by conceding the land. The neighbour has admitted they did not get along at all.




Indeed he did - did he also erect a fence along the current line?
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby xxredmaxx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:48 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi xxredmaxx,

your sols asked you to confirm you were happy to proceed after providing you with a copy of the title plan and SPIF.

the title plan showed a straight line where in the real world the related boundary feature followed a shallow arc.


your predecessor told you in the SPIF that 1. the boundary features had not been replaced/moved in the last 20 years OK but I am a lay person and don't know the difference between a boundary feature and the legal boundary and 2. you were not buying any land beyond the boundary features. Again boundary features versus legal boundary is not something a lay person is supposed to know is it?


you confirmed you were happy to proceed.

which bit of the above suggests your neighbour is "borrowing" some of the land you recognised during purchase as the land you were buying?


Kind regards, Mac


I was not asked to check the boundary with the title plan so "happy" is not the word I'd use. I was uninformed as to the criteria for proceeding.
How do you know its a shallow arc? I can upload a pdf but don't know how to if you can help.
your predecessor told you in the SPIF that 1. the boundary features had not been replaced/moved in the last 20 years - OK but I am a lay person and don't know the difference between a boundary feature and the legal boundary and
2. you were not buying any land beyond the boundary features. Again boundary features versus legal boundary is not something a lay person is supposed to know is it?
which bit of the above suggests your neighbour is "borrowing" some of the land you recognised during purchase as the land you were buying?

The fence is not on the legal boundary. It has been erected in the wrong place. The fence was not there in 2000 so the question of has any boundary feature been moved or replaced in the last 20 years was answered falsely by the seller. It was erected circa 2003 only 10 years before it was sold to me.
Last edited by xxredmaxx on Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby arborlad » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:05 pm

I'm afraid your last post is not easy to understand in its current format.
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby xxredmaxx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:05 pm

arborlad wrote:
xxredmaxx wrote:The wall is not made of bricks from the house which was built 1923.
The bricks are part of the garage build that was erected in 2003. They match perfectly.

I understand a previous owner (not my seller) built the wall after a dispute with my current neighbour to stop bushes and ivy encroaching. It appears he made a big error by conceding the land. The neighbour has admitted they did not get along at all.




Indeed he did - did he also erect a fence along the current line?


My understanding is the owner of my property did not get along with the neighbour. The neighbour is very pushy with plants trees & shrubs and has strayed across the boundary whether intentionally or not. The owner took the easy route chucked up a wall to stop creep and they shared the cost of the fence and he erected it apparently. I can track the owner becasue he is known to some of my associates as he was quite a successful builder. I understand he had reached a point with my neighbour where he just wanted to sell the house and did not want a dispute ongoing so took the easy route.
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby Eliza » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:27 pm

xxredmaxx wrote:
arborlad wrote:
xxredmaxx wrote:The wall is not made of bricks from the house which was built 1923.
The bricks are part of the garage build that was erected in 2003. They match perfectly.

I understand a previous owner (not my seller) built the wall after a dispute with my current neighbour to stop bushes and ivy encroaching. It appears he made a big error by conceding the land. The neighbour has admitted they did not get along at all.




Indeed he did - did he also erect a fence along the current line?


My understanding is the owner of my property did not get along with the neighbour. The neighbour is very pushy with plants trees & shrubs and has strayed across the boundary whether intentionally or not. The owner took the easy route chucked up a wall to stop creep and they shared the cost of the fence and he erected it apparently. I can track the owner becasue he is known to some of my associates as he was quite a successful builder. I understand he had reached a point with my neighbour where he just wanted to sell the house and did not want a dispute ongoing so took the easy route.


Sometimes sellers do take the easy way out.

Also some of us know from experience how the vendor of our property hasnt answered questions on the legal questionnaire fully and clearly :roll: .

Most of us take the view that boundaries are what we can see clearly on the ground (or would be able to see if we went all round the garden and had a darn good look at the time). Many of us (even of rather older age-group) haven't noticed some aspect of the garden differing from the Title Plan etc when we buy a house. Easily done.

You don't tend to realise what a vendor and/or neighbour can get up to until you've been on the receiving end of something you didnt think anyone would try on.
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....
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Re: Have I lost the land?

Postby arborlad » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:16 pm

Eliza wrote:That is you no longer have to wonder what to think of this neighbour/give them benefit of doubt. Looks like they'll try any tactic going to land grab from someone else. In this case that means you.




..............no land grab!!!
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