Put the tape measure away

Postby subjecttocontract » Sat May 20, 2006 3:53 pm

I can see exactly what Conveyancer is saying, the LR plan is to identify which house, not to identify the exact boundaries.

So can I. BUT I own properties where the LR plan has dimensions from fixed points which DON'T move like buildings and roads and it would be misleading to suggest this won't do the job.
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Postby mark1 » Sat May 20, 2006 4:37 pm

Yes Andrew54 that is just what they do. It happened to me. The officials, who have to decide on these disputes, do they realise that? What things do they take in consideration?
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Postby Conveyancer » Sat May 20, 2006 5:38 pm

subjecttocontract wrote:So can I. BUT I own properties where the LR plan has dimensions from fixed points which DON'T move like buildings and roads and it would be misleading to suggest this won't do the job.


Are you referring to the title plan, or to plans contained in documents referred to on the register?
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Postby subjecttocontract » Sun May 21, 2006 8:21 am

I have an Office Copy of the LR documents which refer to a Transfer doc attached to it. The Transfer doc refers to a numbered plan attached to the Transfer that specifically shows the dimensions.
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Postby subjecttocontract » Sun May 21, 2006 8:21 am

I have an Office Copy of the LR documents which refer to a Transfer doc attached to it. The Transfer doc refers to a numbered plan attached to the Transfer that specifically shows the dimensions.
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Postby Conveyancer » Sun May 21, 2006 10:53 am

subjecttocontract wrote:I have an Office Copy of the LR documents which refer to a Transfer doc attached to it. The Transfer doc refers to a numbered plan attached to the Transfer that specifically shows the dimensions.


1. The plan may be subject to the limitations referred to above.

2. The land in the title is the land as shown on the title plan which overrides any plans attached to documents referred to in the register (as to the effect of boundary agreements - see below) and shows the general boundaries only.

3. The exact line of the boundary is only determined if there is a note to that effect in the register.

The effect of boundary agreements depends on their exact terms. In many cases they will only be enforceable between the original parties and in that respect satisfy their purpose if it was to resolve a boundary dispute. The general boundaries rule may still apply subject to anything said in the agreement, but just because the general boundaries rule may not apply to the extent mentioned does not mean that the exact boundary is determined. For example if the agreement says that the existing wall between the two properties belongs to the owner of one property then it will, but the exact position of the wall is not determined and if the wall is knocked down the exact position of the boundary will be uncertain.
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Postby subjecttocontract » Sun May 21, 2006 4:12 pm

You seem to want to make this as complicated as possible. I prefer to approach these matter logically and apply a degree of common sense where appropriate. So let me try and simplify it......


subjecttocontract wrote:
I have an Office Copy of the LR documents which refer to a Transfer doc attached to it. The Transfer doc refers to a numbered plan attached to the Transfer that specifically shows the dimensions.

1. The plan may be subject to the limitations referred to above.


I don't see any limitations in the notes


2. The land in the title is the land as shown on the title plan .....and shows the general boundaries only.

Agreed

which overrides any plans attached to documents referred to in the register....

The Transfer document provides details of the exact piece of land with dimensions being tranferred....the dimensions are there for a reason.

3. The exact line of the boundary is only determined if there is a note to that effect in the register.

That may well be the general case. But in this case a parcel of land that is rectangular with defined dimensions shown in the Transfer for length and width means that statement doesn't seem to apply.

The effect of boundary agreements depends on their exact terms.

There are no agreements as such. I purchased the land from the vendor. Its defined by the deeds which show the size of the land I purchased.

Am I missing something ?
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Postby andrew54 » Sun May 21, 2006 4:34 pm

subjecttocontract wrote: ........in this case a parcel of land that is rectangular with defined dimensions shown in the Transfer for length and width


Do the documents actually say that the land is rectangular?

.
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Postby subjecttocontract » Sun May 21, 2006 7:14 pm

No they don't......but lets not get into a debate about whether it could be a rhomboid.

In this particular case the dimensions are taken from a road (which is square to the plot) and a fixed building for the width. Its easily measured.

Of course not all plots are a regular shape, square, dimensioned, fenced or have fixed datum points........this one IS.
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Postby Conveyancer » Sun May 21, 2006 7:33 pm

What I am trying to get across is that things may not always be as straightforward as they seem.

When the LR receive a transfer with a plan on it, using their skill and judgment, they prepare a title plan. If the transfer is simple and contains no rights, covenants or other matters that need to be noted on the register, the transfer is simply put with the LR's records and no reference is made to it on the register. Any plan attached to the transfer, however carefully drawn and however many dimensions are shown on it, is filed away with the transfer. In that case all you have is the title plan.

If the transfer contains matters that need to be shown on the register the LR has two basic ways of dealing with the matter:

1.They can extract the relevant details and set them out fully in the register. Thus an entry may appear in the register as follows:

A Transfer dated 20th April 1998 contains the grant of a right of way in the following terms:

"TOGETHER WITH a right of way on foot only over the footpath shown coloured green on the plan annexed hereto."

NOTE: The footpath referred to as coloured green is shown tinted brown on the title plan


You have all the information you need. The entry in the register sets out the terms of the grant and the title plan shows the area over which the right is exercisable.

2. They can make a note on the register to the effect that rights were granted by a particular document and instead of setting out the rights in full as a register entry, refer to the document. The document becomes part of the register and a copy may be obtained. A typical entry would be something like:

A Transfer dated 17th November 1988 contains the grant of rights. Copy filed.

In this case you need to look at the transfer to see what the rights are. If the rights are defined by reference to the transfer plan (this need not necessarily be the case) then you also need to look at the plan, but the plan is only there for the purpose of establishing where the rights are exercisable (and of course for any other purpose referred to in the text of the transfer). If the transfer plan happens to be smothered in figured dimensions this is entirely coincidental - so far as your title is concerned the dimensions have served their purpose as they have helped the LR plot the title plan. (Of course in practice the transfer may be referred to to mark out the boundaries and I am not saying it will be of no value if there is a dispute).

***

As a rule of thumb, the first method is used where the transfer is short and/ or the rights can conveniently be shown on the title plan, and the second method is used where the transfer is long and/or the rights cannot be conveniently shown on the title plan.

If a boundary on a transfer plan does not represent a physical feature on the ground the boundary is marked on the title plan with a dotted line and the plan bears a warning to the effect that that boundary has been plotted from a transfer plan and is subject to revision on survey. That is as clear an indication as anything that how the boundary comes to be represented on the ground can be as important as a deed plan, however impressive it may be.
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Postby andrew54 » Sun May 21, 2006 7:43 pm

subjecttocontract wrote:No they don't......but lets not get into a debate about whether it could be a rhomboid..


I think this is the crux of the matter. You are making exactly the sort of presumption that Conveyancer is saying we shouldn't make.

I would expect that if you measure the boundary features you will find that the plot is not perfectly square, it will be several inches out.
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Postby subjecttocontract » Sun May 21, 2006 9:26 pm

Conveyancer.
(Of course in practice the transfer may be referred to to mark out the boundaries and I am not saying it will be of no value if there is a dispute).

Thats exactly what I have done

Andrew54
I think this is the crux of the matter. You are making exactly the sort of presumption that Conveyancer is saying we shouldn't make.

I'm not making any assumptions. I have a good tape measure , a plan with dimensions and am well versed in triangulation

I would expect that if you measure the boundary features you will find that the plot is not perfectly square, it will be several inches out.

Well actually it is surprising accurate. The Transfer plan dimensions are in feet and my plot dimensions check out. Thats near enough for me and the neighbours.

Why are you trying to make something out of this that doesn't exist ? Most of Conveyancers points are valid......they just don't seem to apply in this instance.
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Postby Conveyancer » Sun May 21, 2006 9:55 pm

I don't think Andrew is trying to make any particular point STC, it's just that you rather revealed your hand bit by bit.

Of course there are going to be cases where everything falls nicely into place.

It's a bit like going to the doctor. Sometimes you will present with the classic symptoms of a disease, the doctor recognises them and prescribes the correct medicine and you get better. Sometimes you need two or three visits before the problem clears up. Sometimes they never get to the bottom of it. The man who gets cured quickly thinks that his GP and medicine are wonderful. The man who needs two or three trips say "Typical!" The man who still has the problem...
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Postby mark1 » Thu May 25, 2006 7:08 pm

Going back to the first post by conveyancer on this subject what do you think helps a judge to make a decision one way or the other?
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Postby Conveyancer » Thu May 25, 2006 9:00 pm

higgs wrote:Going back to the first post by conveyancer on this subject what do you think helps a judge to make a decision one way or the other?


I was going to give a long answer, but thought better of it as I am not a litigator.
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