Put the tape measure away

Postby Conveyancer » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:57 pm

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Postby Conveyancer » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:40 am

Bumped to get it back on page 1.
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Postby Worldlife » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:20 pm

It is really unfortunate that this superb thread has to be 'bumped' - it should be a sticky!!!

An update on our situation.

The boundary fence has now been moved back to its correct position.

The solicitors acting for the other party (who is now trying to sell) have sent us copies of all the land registry freehold and leasehold documents.

We are suggesting that the 1:500 scale plan attached to each actual lease is the most accurate plan.

Until this 'developer' moved in the two flat owners had shared the two car parking spaces equally.

There is no reference point on the ground to show the separating line between the two car parking spaces.

The 1:500 scale plan clearly shows the dividing line is not central and we have extra ground!

We have got the tape measure out and established the total width of the car parking area between two fixed walls. We are asking the other party to agree that measurement and the scaled distances on the 1:500 plan as a proportion of that total measurement.

In view of the trespass is it likely that the other party are being unreasonable in attempting to push us to sweep these problems under the carpet? They now want to sell and their solicitor is threatening legal action to claim damages in respect of any thwarted sale "if you do not agree that the areas of dispute are dealt with we shall advise our Client to claim damages for continuing to run a property which she cannot sell due to your unfounded claims"

We are stating that the trespass has caused us to feel insecure and we cannot rely on informal arrangements concerning changes to easements etc.

We are writing to state that we are somewhat dismayed that they seem to be threatening legal action before attempting to clarify the facts of the case or try to resolve our differences and our serious concerns arising from the actions of their client

We have set out about 40 key points concerning the history, documentation and plans and intend to seek the agreement or comment of the other party.

See also http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5410[/url]
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Postby Maverick.uk » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:01 pm

Worldlife wrote:
We are suggesting that the 1:500 scale plan attached to each actual lease is the most accurate plan.


Generally you should not scale anything from a plan, they are usually for indication only and described as such.

What does the written word say?

In law my understanding is you can only rely on the plan if the text requires it or if the written text is ambiguous.

Cheers

Mav
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Postby Worldlife » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:08 pm

The small scale plan (1:1250) filed with the Land Registry with the Leasehold Title does indeed have the usual reservation on it and supports the title of this thread and the last post!!!

This title plan shows the general position, not the exact line, of the boundaries. It may be subject to distortion in scale. Measurements scaled from this plan may not match meaurements between the same points on the ground


The 1:500 plan is part of the actual lease. The text of the lease relies on the plan Neither the text of the lease or the plan itself have any reservation clause similar to the above.
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Postby Conveyancer » Mon May 14, 2007 3:16 pm

Deleted.

(Had two windows open and posted in the wrong one. :oops: )
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Postby Worldlife » Mon May 14, 2007 3:58 pm

That's a wicked way to bump a thread Conveyancer :roll:

Talking about windows we are approaching getting the party who moved a boundary fence (and has now put it back in the correct position) to enter a written agreement (hopefully with a reasonably accurate plan) showing the correct position of the fence together with the changes to the documented easements.

The solicitors for the other party have now agreed we have the right to opening the windows of our bathroom and utility area. We are seeking clarification that these windows have the right to open over the garden of the other party and also enjoy Ancient Lights.

I can understand the other party not wanting to include matters in the agreement that could prejudice a sale but on the other hand I feel it would be wrong, if as the result of concealing such details, problems arose in the future. Would the new purchaser have a justified grievance against both ourselves and the other party for failing to clarify these issues?

Any views? We don't wish to be accused of thwarting a potential sale.
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Postby Conveyancer » Mon May 14, 2007 4:21 pm

Worldlife wrote:That's a wicked way to bump a thread Conveyancer :roll:


Doesn't need bumping now - it's a sticky!

If you are going to the trouble of putting things right, clarify everything that is of concern.

I don't think a purchaser could have a grievance. He buys seeing the documents.
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Moving of a Boundary Line

Postby neutron1966 » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:04 pm

One should be aware that a new plan can be submitted to the LR and that superceeds the original. If the person is wiling to lie and state that this is their land - They win. Believe me I have lost over 15 Sq Metres of land this way because our neigbour did this 12 Years ago and now owns it by 'Adverse Possesion'
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Postby xoggoth » Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:33 pm

I am not sure about any of this "wisdom" any more. We just had to get a surveyor in simply to put a stop to one neighbour's continual stupid claims and damage to our property.

He pointed out in passing what I already know, that the other neighbour has about 2 feet of our land according to the plans. Said I wasn't bothered as it had happened before we moved in 25 years ago and we like the other neighbours anyway but he still suggested I should put some markers in to define the proper boundary.

Starting to wonder what the law is on anything, I think these lawyers and surveyors just make it up as they go along to keep themselves in work.

Like dentists. Anyone who believes tooth decay really exists is an idiot.
My view of the law may be incorrect, but it will certainly be more logical than the reality. (Reality may not be that prevailing in this dimension)
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Re: Moving of a Boundary Line

Postby Daveonawave » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:50 am

neutron1966 wrote:One should be aware that a new plan can be submitted to the LR and that superceeds the original. If the person is wiling to lie and state that this is their land - They win. Believe me I have lost over 15 Sq Metres of land this way because our neigbour did this 12 Years ago and now owns it by 'Adverse Possesion'


That is not correct. If a neighbour moved a boundary 12 years ago, the Limitation Act 2002 would apply and you are able to sue them using a boundary declaration to recover the land or to seek compensation but beware, the courts don't like these cases and they aren't always interested in the law such much as they are in neighbourliness. As a percentage, is 15sq meters much of what you have lost or your you referring to a farm or something? Adverse Possession is also not automatic, the neighbour has to prove that you abandoned the land in question and that ever since then they have maintained it continually. This is almost impossible to prove. Once that is settled it then has to be entered into the Land Registry on a court order. If they have submitted drawings to the Land Registry without a court order, that is probably fraud or something and I would be very surprised if you couldn't reverse that and claim damages costs and so on and the judge might consider criminal charges also. The Land Registry receive lots of drawings without court orders and after having a good laugh at it stick them in the bin. I could be wrong and I am not a solicitor but unfortunately a similar situation has taught me an awful lot about land law. Meanwhile, if that has not happened the land could still be in dispute. Tread very carefully if at all though.
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Postby Conveyancer » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:35 pm

There are now two sets of rules.

Unregistered Land

The Limitation Act 1980 applies. It works like this: you cannot bring an action to recover land when twelve years have elapsed from the date on which you could have first taken action to recover the land and, when the twelve years has elapsed, your title is automatically extinguished. The squatter's title arises simply by having been in possession - there is now no one with a better title who can oust him.

Registered Land

The operation of the Limitation Act is expressly excluded. The Land Registry site is down at the moment. When it is back I shall post the URL for the guide that explains how the LR Act 2002 works.
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Postby minkymo » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:22 am

tip - try not to get too hung up on the technical side of things look for a simple solution if there is one. Have you checked to see if there are any concrete divides at the front or side of the property? these can usually be seen seperating a property from the pavement etc and can sometimes be used to seperate boundaries. As was the case with our dispute. we were in a position where the land was not square to the houses our opponents land was slightly higher, they had 2 surveyors allegedley (neither one able to provide a report) and a solicitor who boasts locally of his conquests in bounddary disputes. we used this as a land mark as we knew it could not have been moved,whereas fences hedges etc could. The result was NFH lost, paid a substantial settlement figure and the local courts have copies of all letters that have taken place between us which remain open & on file for ages.

we unbfortunatley did not have the hindight to take photo's of the daily chores we do in the garden so no pictures of wheelbarrows I am afraid & yes we had all fences moved whilst we were away on holiday - so we decided to get CCTV to stop the creep from taking the mickey again!
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Postby Conveyancer » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:54 pm

A recent case emphasises some of the points made in this thread:

http://tinyurl.com/yokl2n
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Postby Conveyancer » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:52 am

A webpage worth looking at: http://tinyurl.com/5wrtzh
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