Put the tape measure away

Postby Louisej60 » Mon May 12, 2008 3:27 pm

Hi Conveyancer, Wondered if you could help me. There is a large stretch of land running down the side of our property, at least 12 feet. It used to be a ditch but was filled in due to not being able to maintaian. I have asked the land drainage if they own it, but when they came to look at it my neighbour said it was half his, so this is what there reply said, ie, they do not own it but think it is half and half. They can tell you what you can and can not plant on this land.
I now have pictures from the war showing that the hedge was in our garden, so I was thinking of the hedge ditch rule which would make it ours. I would like to know how I find out if it is registered as it is show still as a ditch on the land registary. My neighbour is okay, he just a young arogant pig most of the time!. I am sick of him dumping stuff there as he has buildings that back on to the ditch side so he cannot see the rubbish. Should I get a copy of his land registar?
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Postby despair » Mon May 12, 2008 3:37 pm

Ditches should never be filled in

The cause of the flood damage summer 2007 that has now blighted the lives of those living in Thatcham was caused by a developer filling in drainage ditches to build a new estate up the hill

Hence heavy rain flooded straight down and filled the homes of people with 4 ft of water ........it was February this year before they could move back in and now they can never sell their homes because they are blighted
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Postby Conveyancer » Mon May 12, 2008 4:38 pm

Louisej60 wrote:Hi Conveyancer, Wondered if you could help me. There is a large stretch of land running down the side of our property, at least 12 feet. It used to be a ditch but was filled in due to not being able to maintaian. I have asked the land drainage if they own it, but when they came to look at it my neighbour said it was half his, so this is what there reply said, ie, they do not own it but think it is half and half. They can tell you what you can and can not plant on this land.
I now have pictures from the war showing that the hedge was in our garden, so I was thinking of the hedge ditch rule which would make it ours. I would like to know how I find out if it is registered as it is show still as a ditch on the land registary. My neighbour is okay, he just a young arogant pig most of the time!. I am sick of him dumping stuff there as he has buildings that back on to the ditch side so he cannot see the rubbish. Should I get a copy of his land registar?


Who is registered with what will not help here since the general boundaries rule applies. You seem to have a case to argue the hedge and ditch rule, but other evidence may rebut it.
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Postby Louisej60 » Wed May 14, 2008 11:08 pm

What type of other evidence? I would have been way happier if it had remained a ditch, but I would think there would be little chance getting it put back. We have mega wildlife. But chap next door is dumping rubbish all the time, kitchen garbage and farm stuff, hence we also have a rather healthy rat population. I dont mind them but I did feel cross when I found one checking my kitchen cupboard out!!
What if the land is not regitered, could I apply to 'have it' ?
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reply to Despair

Postby Louisej60 » Wed May 14, 2008 11:17 pm

You are so right, where I live they have over the last 10 years ripped up hedges and filled in ditches. Now they are replanting hedges and suffering the consequences for filling in dykes. Our on one side is about 10 feet plus deep and at the top over 12 feet wide, the side they filled in has a 4foot round pipe!!! you tell me how the hell that is supposed to cope. Two feilds away we have a major canal, again over the years they have left it. I graze horses on some of the banks and can state that they have not cleared out for over 10 years, so silt has built up blocking release doors to ditches that feed into canal. We came so close to being flooded it was scary. We got away with it this time but if things start to get worse I dont think we'll be as lucky again. Insurance is hit the roof! Also we have newts and I would have thought they had to consider this before filling, but it is done now.
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Can any of this help us?

Postby duggat » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:53 am

We happily....well, not exactly, as our neighbours have spent the last 9 years trying to make us unhappy in one form or another.
Sorry; we happily used our land since moving in in 1997 and then our neighbours moved next door in 2000.
There was never any inkling of concern on boundaries until we laid a new drive in June 2008.
They excepted the old ugly, broken drive that went to the same line between the houses.
In 2003 our neighbours removed the old fence(wire) and replaced with a wooden fence. No issue as in same line.
In September 2008 they sent a letter saying that we have encroached their boundary by the new drive and if we did not remove it they would.
Numerous solicitors letters back and forth. They then had a surveyor determine the boundary from the land registry plans.
We argue we and people before have used this land as theirs since before 1975 as we have spoken to original neighbour of their house.
So; legally how do we stand? We and everyone else know this is just another way they have decided to intimidate us. The problem is they are so mad they actually may take it as far as court.
Can they disregard that the boundary has moved since the houses were registered and even though HE determined the boundary again in 2003; still have a case against us?
Its a worry.
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boundary dispute

Postby michno8 » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:46 am

I moved into my property in April this year.When enquiring about putting a new driveway down it became apparent that there had been a previous boundary dispute.The boundary on the deeds ran parallel with the property wall.The neighbours dispute was that the edge of the concrete drive was the correct boundary.A previous elderly owner had disputed this with solicitors but eventually had verbally agreed with the bullying neighbour that the edge of the driveway could be the adopted boundary.We have had an independent survey done which states the true boundary to be the one running parallel with the wall.The neighbours initial reason for claiming this strip of land was that his plot was smaller than it should be therefore he was claiming this strip.The survey report stated that his original plans were to scale and were exact to what was measured on site.As he tricked this elderly lady into reasons where the boundary should be, is a verbal agreement legally binding. The original dispute was 25 years ago.
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Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby fencerforcash » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 pm

THE REAL CAMPAIGN IS ON THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND THE LAW LORDS to make a proper legislation to protect citizens in small properties from FRAUD.

If you have got so far with a boundary dispute then you will realise that it can easily be made into an insurance fraud, in the same manner that cashforcrash was made into a lucrative "industry" for car crashes.

This is how the fraud is perpetrated. Your neighbour passes each day your fence and when you are on holiday he pushed the fence post or causes it to be out of line. He has got a Legal expenses cover with the largest and greediest business. This business is made on60% "success rate" and this success rate is based on the inequality that the LAW LORDS have allowed in the last Government to exist and even expanded into its own lucrative Land Adjudication Court.

When you go to fix your own post on your own land you are reliant on having had
1. many various photos and film (is better as it does three dimenstions)
2. and expert witness to verify the fence post is replaced in the same position.

Your fraudulent neighbour does not have to have anything, and he is more likely to start this the moment you move in, as the previous old neighbour would have had
a. witnesses that he was a liar and b. lots of old photos. New owners are highly unlikely to have either so are prime targets. You see him at the post but you simply cannot imagine someone ON PURPOSE pushing it out of its mount so you leave it. If he annoys you with other things - check this company's legal expenses cover on the website to see if he is trying to get you into a dispute about nuisance, plants or other things, but boundaries are the most LUCRATIVE to this company and they are not at all worried about advising their clients on how to win a case...whereas you the victim of hte fraud will find no help whatsoever....especially NO HELP from LAND REGISTRY or your CONVEYANCING SOLICITORS as one has no legal obligation to comment and will send you to solicitors and the other will simply not help becuase they do not want to be sued for fault or are eager for a long pithy battle which they get lots of money for.

The scam:

The post is unsure so you go and put an new one in, and he launches a verbal attack on you. You call your Legal expenses insurance and they say "wrtite him a letter stagting you are about to repair your fence and that he has a few weeks to make his case in writing etc". This does not mean your legal expenses insurance comapnyu will meet your legal bills, in fact it is simply what you are told by all the professionals to do, but in fact by putting something in writging you open the other side's lawyers to take action because you are repairing your fence on your land....and they will now try to pretend that you are moving your fence into their land...and this becomes a trespass claim.


and when you call up your LEI to complain that their advice of a letter has actually encouraged a fraudulent claim by the other side and threatening legal letters tehy simply decide not to offer you legal expenses insurance.... because your fraudulent neighbour has claimed verbally that you moved the fence that they do not "cover defence" - check your company will do this regardless of what is written in the brochure you send.


I realised that this was the scam as now the fraudulent neighbour has access to £50K legal expenses insurance and I have no access to any legal cover I presumed to have. Furthermore the Legal Expenses Insurance scam company you are with tells you that you cannot get cover if you see another lawyer (this is wrong and the FSA Ombudsman has written to them all to say they cannot do this) so you go to a new lawyer anyway because by now you have had several threatening legal demands from the other side to "put the fence back or put it back or in the right place" , all of which are too inaccurate and vague to be a real mediation and of such a nature that you realise that if you put the fence somewhere you think he wants it he will simply say it is the place. The other side send these timewaster letters to you and pretend they are "mediating", when they are not for these simple reasons: a, the courts say all matters have to be seen to be tried to have been kept out of court, and b. mitigate (save on) costs, and the other side will charge each letter they send to you - to you if they win the case. The letters can be priced at whateve cost they like, and if you 'lose' the case then you pay ALL THE OTHERSIDE'S FEES.

The LAW LORDS and the Minister of Justice are fully aware of this and that people are being crippled over tiny fence disputes that would cost £20 to fix by lawyers fees that are in tens of thousands. They are aware that it would be far easier to force each house owner who has been resident to fix /record their boundaries with their neighbours before being able to sell their property and thus record these with the Land Registry keep frauds out of courts, but the fact is LAW LORDS are lawyers and are there to protect the interests of lawyers not citizens.

What they did - recognising the outrageous number of useless boundary disputes blocking the courts was to invent a new court for boundary disputes..(not rid the system of these superfluous legal fees) .and this publishes the cases - which if you read then you will see how attractive paint drying is...these cases rest on words which are as open to conjecture (argument) as words are. The photos or witness statements and of course videos indicate that even if you record your boundaries it is the job of the FRAUDULENT lawyer to find some conjecture to pick a hole in.

Lord Jackson is taking a review of the costs that these companies create from creating fraudulent claims, and frankly his consultation is written for legal types and those who are least likely to object. I completed the consultation questionaire but it was so full of legal jargon as simply made for lawyers to decide if lawyers should get paid large fees from winning cases. That is a shame as the citizens who are losing their houses to pay for their own legal fees and those of the other party are not really asked if they mind. Judges in cases that sympathise with those who "win" a case but are crippled by fees are giving damages of £10, and this is the real issue around these cases.

Some cases are about 2.5 inches of movement, and the other party can claim damages of thousands, encouraged by their lawyers to do so, for an alleged level of 'inconvenience or injury" that they simply never had.

Does the law force a fraudulent claiming neighbour to prove his case? Well yes in court but once it has gone to court the legal fees are astronomical so normally the victim of the scam is falling over backwards to agree. Agreement and resolution are never accepted by a fraudulent claimant as they DO NOT WANT TO REALLY AGREE where a fence went - they simply want the DAMAGES MONEY. Thus you may find if you are victim of this scam that the other party has got a surveyor who report claims all sorts of things that simply are not true.

Like all things in the UK today, no figures of authority are necessarily abiding by their own guild or standards of conduct. The police say that as this is a civil dispute they cannot get involved if the neighbour continues to damage your property etc....and even proposing fraud to them - which is a criminal matter - it is a disgusting shame - that investigations are now delivered by the governing bodies themselves....so insurance frauds are investigated by insurance companies, and not an independent body like the police. Banks are "policed" by the FSA and legal expenses insurance companies are not governed by the Solicitors but their staff who are solicitors are. So if a solicitor gets into trouble with a complaint hte company practise continues...to make, help to make, build cases for money, and to undermine and mislead the other party to be entrapped in legal wrangles they will be forced to pay for.

Thus the other party solicitor begins to write about things they have no rights about - hedges you cut and so forth, and each letter is aimed at finding what point you will argue with, and this then becomes a series of letters which you will - if you win or lose - pay for, whilst your neighbour has and will not pay for any thing.

If you contact the SRA - for bad solicitors - you have to make the case and of course I have no doubt that they are most responsive but the cost of escalating from boundary to SRA case and others is simply beyond the average person.

The RICS (surveyors) has had many members who are creating spurious (surveys for the other side that are intended to open insurance cases and payouts but are not true representations of the land) surveys and thankfully as many members who, for a fee, will contest and undermine and prove accurately that the surveyor was inaccurate. However once again it is all about milking the situation for the fraudulent surveyor if proven in court to be "mistaken" is not barred by the RICS and certainly the RICS doesnt care that much about "individual cases". The onus over and over again of finding and proving against the fraudulent insurance legal expenses solicitor, client and surveyor is you, and just you. It is the fact that surveyors charge £150 plus VAT and that it is pick and mix as to what standard of survey you get.

Despite this being a huge money making fraud, only the insurance fraud bureau appears interested and they are - as all these insane organiations will ask you - the victim - to show evidence of the other sides fraud.

How on earth do you do that?

1. step one - dont get a lawyer to reply to them but see a lawyer to advise you in writing and re-write the letter to them
this will encourage them to think you are without a lawyer and thus they will make more and more outrageous claims and demands

2. step two - dont see litigation solicitors - see property specialsit lawyers - understand your rights and ask them to interpret your neighbours solicitors points, and you will find in most cases that a good lawyer dismiss or undermine or give you the real interpretaton of the law. A bad lawyer will engage you for the full first hour in useless "dumbo" questions in order to get a fee, and will give you nothing of use, so go to another one. A greedy lawyer will write a letter that is demanding of the other side threatening legal action you do not intend to take - so refuse them to send it.

3. Concede and offer anythign on the basis of evidence or real measurements. Offer your surveyor to meet them on your site - do not share the costs of their surveyors - to offer an agreed position. They will refuse or agree then simply find some reason to refuse as they DO NOT REALLY WANT AGREEMENT. And the law as it stands does not force anyone to mediate or agree with anyone if they dont want to. In fact the judges in the cases do not weight much sympathy on the victims of these frauds who tell them how many times they offer mediation or to do what they can to get the other person to agree on a reasonable settlement. The law as it stands allows a person to move a fence over three foot into your land, and if you have no proof against that then they get it, and it also allows a person to argue over 2 inches of land they do not own because the maps are all TOO SMALL to be accurate.

4. Do not show them your evidence for your side ! Do not offer all your evidence to them! What the fraudulent lawyer will then do is change the accusation from boundary to right of way to obstruction and so forth and they are seeking the usual honest person's response to show them all their evidence as if they are a judge. This allows the fraudulent lawyer and client to see your case and find loopholes or queries and you will feel most angry that they will not - and they will write to you and say this "accept" your surveys, photos and such like.

5. The law as it stands and all the websites refer you to the Land Regisry and this organisation is simply holding copies of very very very small maps which are noted as too small to make assumptions from, but surveyors can. Surveyors make an assumption that the boundary is within three feet of any point on the map....that menas that a a dot on the map is three feet wide in reality, and this has allowed bad neigbours to move fences over and still be "in line" with the deed map.

6. This is why I think there should be a chnage in the law that says that no person can sell a small surburban house that they have occupied without having photographed and agreed with their neighbours. The rule of 20 years ownership should instigate agreed boundaries as the deeds and the deed maps might not have been updated to the changes made over the twenty years and so they simply are not viable to use any longer - and stop all these court cases if the Government could just see past giving lawyers and Law Lords the decision on this.

7. When we bought our property it was advised by our solicitor that it was "bought as seen" and that we examine the boundaries. We should have been advised to have a survey at the time of purchase examien and record all the boundaries and further more we could not see the movement of the fences as they were covered by ivy - I have no doubt grown by the residents to hide the attrocious movement of the fences that had been made by the neighbour before.

8. It is clear that the neighbour tried this on in the front garden but due to the DATA PROTECTION ACT the cases that might have come to court or that got settled out of court are not given to us because the previous owners can simply state the disputes are not current on the TA10/11/12.

9. Practically the law as it stands allows anyone to claim anything and waste your time and life disproving it, and there is no redress. They might get damages and you might get nothing but a large legal bill over a fence post which - as I have proven - I put back in the same hole I took out of on my land.

There is another post that needs mending but there is simply no money left having spent on lawyers and surveyors to build a case of defence against these pack of fraudulent liars.

Effectively the law does not make it necessary - unless stated in convenants - for my neighbour to maintain his fence with me and it is now impossible for me to think about mending another fencepost he is pushing out as he passes (expecially after one post has been over £2000 in expenses). In the end you have to let your property go into delapidation and decline in order to avoid proving with 'experts' that the post was where it was.

The way this travesty is encouraged by the Government is that it has not required those houseowners of over 20 years to record their boundaries and reach agreement with their neigbhours before selling or after 20 years. It is highly less likely these cases would prove as lucrative to the LEI industry but they would give honest lawyers income who are being driven into more litigation situations simply as a manner to make money. The lawyer as advisor and reasonable advocate for settlement is NOT REWARDED IN COURTS and this should be rewarded.

What is also very clear as well is that even with the judicial review of Lord Jackson reducing the damages or fees awarded to fraudulent claimants, that the manner in which these frauds can so easily be perpetrated is based on an inability for the LAW LORDS to create a set of Reasonable Codes of Conduct for local surban housing fencing disputes.

These should be :

1. talk to your neighbour
2. if you neighbour is unreasonable write to him
3. send the recorded delivery letter of points to a mediation body
4. the neighbour should respond in three months
5. Reasonable action can be taken if there is no agreement

Thus I did talk to my neighbour and he had no objections because it was not in writing and he hoped that by encouraging repairs to my fencing he could make money out of a court case.
I wrote to him to make reasonable response and he simply wrote back and said he was "holding his position" which was not anything in writging at all. Our land laid open and not fenced off for over three weeks and he still did not respond for as I said he is waiting for me to erect a fence and then he will use his LEI to start a boundary dispute.
That is what he did.
I had got a surveyor in a the point the fence post was removed and the surveyor agreed that I could put my fence post back where it was and he recorded it, and then the letters from the other side tried to involve me in all issues of gardening and so the other side agreed on nothing except that which our surveyor had made clear - the boundaries in the front etc.

My neighbour got a spurious surveyor who used on ly the deed map and made an erroneous demand for the post to be mvoed over one foot without any photo evidence or any ground markings etc. This man will be paid highly.

They then demanded the post be "returned" to this fictional spot and my estate agent said "GIVE THEM THEM LAND" THE CASE WILL COST TOO MUCH TO FIGHT AND YOU WILL LOSE BECAUSE THEY FALSIFY EVIDENCE".

I spoke to lawyers and surveyors who all agree the land is not his and it is clearly mine but none of them can stop a court case occurring and none were so bad that they knew how to help me stop a fraudulent case being generated before court or in court.

I cannot appeal to anyone to stop being taken to court and can only set up what defence I have with what information I was given by the solicitors on purchase and the previous owners are - as you might guess - unavailable except through their solicitors.


IT IS A FRAUD - and you cannot do a thing about it as the LAW LORDS simply dont care if the law is being misused in this manner. It is - as I am told by all these very expensively paid public servants - up to the individual case...that means only you.




However there is some hope:

The FSA has stated taht if a case is one of nuisance (distrubance of the use of your property) against your neighbour then you can reclaim the money the LEI refused to offer under its LEI when you originally approached them. So if you win your case of trespass from them etc then you can claim your legal expenses back but you must have made a claim for them in writing and not simply on the phone as when you write an FSA complaint the company who should help you often lies about the conversations you had, timings being the one they can date and state occurred after teh incident began action. The FSA are useless as they like to report "successes" for one odd case in the magazine wbut will not asit you finding the detail of the case so you can find out the manner in which the case was won...that woudl be too helpful and would allow you to make more cases agaisnt their client sector.

Deed mistakes are indemnified by the Land Registry and they will pay for their mistakes on your deeds...and if you have proven in a dipute your boundary then they should take that on board. The officers in Land registry however are protected by a callcentre system that means they can avoid helping you and that call centre people have absolutely no help to give you. In this manner the Land Rewgistry staff are left in peace to do important things like filing, and making coffee. The concept of their being available to advise members of the public is dismissed, as they can often send you useless letters aimed at avioding answering any query and simply referring to thier publications which state that the deeds are not accurate records of your boundaries. And remember your taxes pay fro their "service" to the public.
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Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby celestina » Fri May 27, 2011 5:06 pm

Very interesting thread... our plans are very vague too... we have tended to use features to determine boundaries but as already said this has it problems... streams and hedges change over time... we have lived here for 25 years and lost about 4ft from parts of the garden due to stream erosion.
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Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby Venetian » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:22 pm

We have just found ourselves in a boundary dispute with our neighbour and, unfortunately, didn't "put the tape measure away". We bought 200 square yards from our neighbour for an agreed price and a surveyor did a plan stating that we had bought 200 square yards. When we received the land registry plan, we measured out, roughly, 200 square yards (it was actually slightly less) based, roughly, on the plan. We could not follow the plan as the neighbour would have had to remove some of their pavement and we would have taken some of the entrance to her drive way. She is now complaining that we have taken too much land and put the fence in the wrong place. We assumed, naively, that we were buying 200 square yards! Our solicitor can only confirm that it was our expectation that we were buying this amount but that we, in fact, have bought a land registry plan. Don't get me wrong, the fence that we erected is roughly as stated in the plan but we understand from the neighbour that she is selling her bungalow and wants us to either give her some more money to compensate her or move the fence to exactly where the land registry states it should go.
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Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby madmoggy » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:47 pm

Venetian wrote: Don't get me wrong, the fence that we erected is roughly as stated in the plan but we understand from the neighbour that she is selling her bungalow and wants us to either give her some more money to compensate her or move the fence to exactly where the land registry states it should go.


sorry venetian, but i am on the side of your neighbour - we had a boundary dispute over our neighbour's fence attached to our house (terraced) in 2008.

the fence was there when we bought the property, so they argued it should be replaced there. we said they should put it back where it belongs, on the boundary as shown on the land registry plans, but were bullied by them and the council to replace it where it was. we didn't know what our rights were and it was getting too stressful, so we agreed.

now we want to sell our house and are worried that their fence on our house will affect the property value, since they have built a huge conservatory right up to the fence, and it draws even more attention to the encroachment on our property, so i sympathise with your neighbour.

we have assumed that since we agreed to let them replace the fence as it was, and this happened over three years ago, we wouldn't be in a very good position if we went to court over this.

my question to others on the board:

- would we have any legal rights if this becomes an issue in a future sale?
- could we sue our neighbours for loss of value to our property because of this fence?
- does it make a difference that we were unaware of any rights we might have had at the time in 2008 - (if we did have any rights)

if not, can i keep moaning on this board??

haha, moggie
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Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby debbyc » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:47 pm

Well, I really wish you would give us the benefit of your experience on this cos I understand you are not a litigator but you have a lot of knowledge and seem to be very careful about being balanced ... so, on the balance of things, what does help/influence in your past experience? :)
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Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby debbyc » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:04 pm

please ignore my last post ... idiot that i am, i got to the end of a page and thought it was the end of the posts! (fried brain, what can i say !?)
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Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby celcorjen » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:04 pm

Does anyone know how the Land registry adjudicator works? I mean how do we get to be heard? Can we submit a claim/case directly or do we need a solicitor to refer the case to the adjudicator?
Since the LR adjudicator is more knowledgeable about boundary issues I don't see the point in going to a civil court (which seems to be more like playing poker).
I'm also thinking to ditch the solicitor - am researching my case carefully, reading everything I can - and hire a barrister with expertise in land/property disputes for advice only (as a member in this thread claims to have done and sucessfully but didn't get back to tell us about the details). Thanks.
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Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby Conveyancer » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:22 pm

This is worth looking at and digesting thoroughly as it stresses various points I have made over the years in different threads: http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/in-practice ... y-disputes
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