need advice

Re: need advice

Postby tregger » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:30 pm

i am having great trouble trying to findout from the highways agency if this land is deemed part of the highway.
who do i speak to as they say you need to speak to the land registry so going round in cirles with this :|
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Re: need advice

Postby andrew54 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:50 pm

tregger wrote:i am having great trouble trying to findout from the highways agency if this land is deemed part of the highway.
who do i speak to as they say you need to speak to the land registry so going round in cirles with this :|


The Highways Agency deals only with Motorways and other major routes. You need to ask your local Highway Authority, which is the County Council if you have one, or otherwise your local council. The Highway authority will probably have plans, but might not.

If the registered owner no longer exists I think you could occupy the land without problem. It doesn't look like highway, I doubt it is. But it is not presently your garden, so you would have to apply for planning permission for extension of domestic curtilage. That permission might not be granted because the present open aspect is an amenity for the public - as I walk past it looks pleasant but would not look as pleasant if fenced off.

Another option is to remove your present fence and leave the whole area open plan. You get your bigger garden (effectively) and public still enjoy the open aspect.
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Re: need advice

Postby tregger » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:51 pm

andrew54 wrote:
tregger wrote:i am having great trouble trying to findout from the highways agency if this land is deemed part of the highway.
who do i speak to as they say you need to speak to the land registry so going round in cirles with this :|


The Highways Agency deals only with Motorways and other major routes. You need to ask your local Highway Authority, which is the County Council if you have one, or otherwise your local council. The Highway authority will probably have plans, but might not.

If the registered owner no longer exists I think you could occupy the land without problem. It doesn't look like highway, I doubt it is. But it is not presently your garden, so you would have to apply for planning permission for extension of domestic curtilage. That permission might not be granted because the present open aspect is an amenity for the public - as I walk past it looks pleasant but would not look as pleasant if fenced off.

Another option is to remove your present fence and leave the whole area open plan. You get your bigger garden (effectively) and public still enjoy the open aspect.


the local council do not seem to know how to find out if this was deemed part of the highway :x , maybe i Should just go forward with the planning permission for extension of domestic curtilage.

is this a simple process ?
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Re: need advice

Postby pilman » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:02 pm

any ideas what i need to do ?
This question was originally posed in September 2008 with the OP even now asking what should be done, even though he has confirmed that the original development company shown as the registered proprietor is no longer in existence and the local highway authority have no idea if this was adopted as part of the highway.

My idea, for what it's worth, would be to immediately take possession of the land and use it as though it were your own by planting it as you wish it to be planted.
I would also erect a low fence as a continuation of the wall alongside the pavement to indicate that I had taken possession of all the land behind the pavement.

I cannot believe someone has had the patience to wait for nearly 5 years without doing what I would have done the day after finding out that the company shown as registered owner no longer existed.

When I built my own house, the front garden wall was set back about 3 feet behind the pavement as that extra land was the verge shown as part of the adopted public highway on the plan provided by the Highway Authority, who had insisted I did not build on their land when the original house plans were submitted for approval.

During the 12 years we have lived here my wife has planted trees and shrubs in the highway verge in the same way as nearly every other house-holder in the street had done, so that people walking past continued to use the four feet wide pavement, as the verge became fully occupied with plants and trees.

Having seen the photo that was also posted in September 2008, it was obvious that there would be no interference with pedestrians walking past the existing wall alongside the pavement, so the concept that nothing has been done since 2008 is what is amazing me now we are still seeing postings made in July 2013.

My answer to the original question would be "Just get on and use the land as your own"

If the Local Planning Authority ever decide that there has been a breach of planning control because there was a change of use from amenity land to garden land then that is the time to decide if a planning application will be needed.

Erecting a low fence does not require planning permission. It is permitted development.
Continuing to mow the grass and planting additional trees or shrubs does not require planning permission, as long as that is all that happens.
The potential breach of planning control would be a change of use from amenity land to garden but looking at the photo that seems unlikely.
The mowed grass and existing shrubs already look as though the land is part of the garden.
If that has looked like that for 10 years then it is now lawfully used as a garden and needs no further permission.

Certainly no one from the council has ever commented on our planting in what is actual highway verge.
Why would your council comment about planting on land behind the existing brick wall that is not even adopted highway.
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Re: need advice

Postby tregger » Tue May 19, 2015 8:44 pm

crazy i know as this post started in 2008 !

But where i am now is i have been trying to contact the previous owners without success until recently, to get them to supply a statement of truth so i could go ahead with owning this land legally , finally after finding them they have refused to do this anyway.

after speaking to a solicitors , the piece of land is not enclosed enough to warrant an adverse possession claim , and my only hope would be to pursue buying it from the crown due to the original developer being dissolved now.

i guess as soon as contacting the crown and stating you want to buy it you are forfeiting you AV rights , not that 7 years is enough to claim solely anyway.

i am fairly clear about the process, but this piece of land is part of a larger title including grass verges etc, does the crown have the ability to split the title and just sell the piece i am interested in ?

i would like to split the plot and possibly build another house hence my need to do this legally , not just plant a few trees
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Re: need advice

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue May 19, 2015 9:11 pm

Hi treggers,

does the crown have the ability to split the title and just sell the piece i am interested in ?

yes they do - whether they will is another matter...

please tell me you are now in factual possession of the land?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: need advice

Postby tregger » Tue May 19, 2015 9:30 pm

hi

if by "factual possession of the land" you mean do i satisfy the 10 year requirement solely then no , i have not erected any fence either .
my possession of the land is by cutting the grass etc , no one else looks after it.
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Re: need advice

Postby ukmicky » Wed May 20, 2015 12:59 am

If it is a mixture of highway and non highway the crowns advice that I read in the past is that they will not split it from the rest but they will entertain a request to sell it as one unit.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
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Re: need advice

Postby tregger » Wed May 20, 2015 10:01 am

why would someone buy highway land ?

does any one have an example of when it has been split ?
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Re: need advice

Postby ukmicky » Wed May 20, 2015 10:52 pm

tregger wrote:why would someone buy highway land ?



It wouldn't be worth it on most occasions ,however sometimes along with the highway land you can occasionally acquire land which is not highway.
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Re: need advice

Postby tregger » Thu May 21, 2015 7:14 pm

ukmicky wrote:
tregger wrote:why would someone buy highway land ?



It wouldn't be worth it on most occasions ,however sometimes along with the highway land you can occasionally acquire land which is not highway.



solicitors quote

acquiring the property from the Crown the difficulty will be that it was clearly intended by the developer, and maybe the planners at the time, that the verges and land next to the roadway on the corner plots would remain part of the estate and not transferred to the individual owners. This seems clear to me from the freehold plan as it is not only your property which has land between the property and the pathway but also the properties opposite and adjacent. For this reason the Crown may be reluctant to transfer the subject land to you without consulting your neighbours. Your neighbours may object on the basis of site lines, amenity land etc. and it may result in them actually using the land.



I think you are better off leaving matters as they are and “letting sleeping dogs lie” continuing to use the land on the same basis as you have since acquisition.
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Re: need advice

Postby ukmicky » Sat May 23, 2015 9:57 pm

Its easy to find out by emailing the appropriate place and asking to purchase it.

Crown land and crown estate land

You say this land is now crown land , are you sure because the treasury solicitor normally disclaims any rights to land which contains roads for access to housing estates . If this land has reverted to the crown as bona vacantia land it is now administered by the treasury solicitor and you need to email the bona vacantia department and ask them . http://www.tsol.gov.uk.

If this land was disclaimed by the treasury solicitor its freehold title will have been extiquished and it will have reverted back into the control of the queen . The solicitor for the crown estate are Burges Salmon. They will have a form on their website.


As I said before however neither will normally split titles if part of the title contains a road and will only normally sell the whole title but there is always the exception so there is no harm in enquiring.
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Re: need advice

Postby ukmicky » Sat May 23, 2015 10:22 pm

If it were me I would enquire on the basis that you are maintaining it so would like to own it. I wouldn't mention any wish to build on it in the future or fence it.


If you were to get it even if it were amenity land you could still fence it without a planning application . Building on it however or using it as part of your garden for your house would require planning permission and at that time the neighbours could object.

There are many application that have been approved to change amenity land into domestic garden ,there are however just as many applications which have been refused . Those which have been refused ,many then gone to appeal and have been won but it is a gamble.
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Re: need advice

Postby tregger » Fri May 29, 2015 1:02 pm

if i was lucky enough to be able to buy it , would it be wiser to submit plans to make it part of the garden before trying to get planning to build ?
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Re: need advice

Postby jdfi » Sat May 30, 2015 6:38 pm

tregger wrote:if i was lucky enough to be able to buy it , would it be wiser to submit plans to make it part of the garden before trying to get planning to build ?


No. Don't contact anyone. Erect the low fence and shrubs you were advised to erect back in 2008. Make the whole lot look as one garden.
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