Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby Frog » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:38 pm

Hi,

I just wondered if someone could clarify what the regulations are on erecting a 6ft fence close to the boundary of a property which is next to the pavement/Road?

We have a large piece of land to the side of our property and back garden (which we own), and would like to put up a 6ft fence to incorporate it in to the back garden - we already have a hedge there, but its not really safe for children to play out as they could get out to the road. I have read that you need planning permission for fences over 1 metre on a highway/pavement boundary, but if I didn't want to apply for planning how far in from the boundary would the fence need to be - if I want it to be 6ft? Or do I need planning regardless? :?

I thought it was 1 or 2 metres from the boundary - but cant seem to find this information anywhere? I have looked on the council website but I can't see anything :?: .

Many thanks :)
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby despair » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:29 pm

adjacent to a highway or pavement only 1 metre is allowed unless you can obtain planning permision

Stupid law is though that a hedge can be in same location and grown to dizzy heights

hence if your hedge is 2 metres high put a fence in behind it and it wont be seen and unless some nosey neighbours has a grudge and starts complaining
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby Frog » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:42 pm

Thank you for your help :)
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby andrew54 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:10 pm

Frog, there are 2 issues here. First the planning permission - 'adjacent' to the highway needs permission for a fence over one metre high. It is not very specific and different authorities interpret 'adjacent' differently.

But also this land might be part of the highway. Or some of this land might be part of the highway. The fact you OWN this land is not enough for you to be allowed to fence it off. You need to check with your local Highway Authority as to where the edge of the highway is.
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby Frog » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:13 pm

Thank you - I will speak to planning and the Highway authority and see what they say :)
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby Frog » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:03 pm

I have submitted plans to the council, and will wait to see what their decision is in due course.

The highways have confirmed that the land is ours, but we may need to have the fence set back 1 metre from the boundary, to allow for splay visibility to house whos front drive is at the bottom of our garden.

With regards to the fence which will run parallel to the neighbours drive at the bottom of our garden, I have asked for the fence to be behind our current hedge, but do I need permission for this, as it is not next to the highway - its parallel to her drive. I can stop the fence 1 metre before it meets with the pavement without a problem to comply with the splay visibility. I really dont want to give up 1 metre depth by 2 metres length of my garden to my neighbours drive , if I can just take up the leylandii (yes I know!!! but they are only about 4ft at the moment) and put the fence on that boundary instead of putting the fence inside of the boundary leaving the trees exposed to the neighbours drive?????

Ive attached a rough image to give you an idea of what I mean - the fence in question is in red, and is next to the neighbours drive.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby andrew54 » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:53 pm

Frog wrote:The highways have confirmed that the land is ours....
We already knew the land was yours, have they confirmed it is not part of the highway?

Frog wrote:..... but we may need to have the fence set back 1 metre from the boundary, to allow for splay visibility.....
If you can put up the fence under permitted development (without planning permission) then you do not have to take any account of splays.

Frog wrote:With regards to the fence which will run parallel to the neighbours drive at the bottom of our garden, I have asked for the fence to be behind our current hedge, but do I need permission for this, as it is not next to the highway -
It is not next to the highway, so you can go up to 2 metres high under permitted development (without planning permission.
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby Frog » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:42 pm

andrew54 wrote:
Frog wrote:The highways have confirmed that the land is ours....
We already knew the land was yours, have they confirmed it is not part of the highway?
............Sorry, yes they have confirmed it is not part of the highway, but any development must be 1 metre back from the highway to allow for splay visibility for next door to pull out of their drive.

Frog wrote:..... but we may need to have the fence set back 1 metre from the boundary, to allow for splay visibility.....
If you can put up the fence under permitted development (without planning permission) then you do not have to take any account of splays.

........................I have to have planning permission for the main fence as it runs up the side of the highway, and they have said unless its less than 1 metre high then I need permission.

Frog wrote:With regards to the fence which will run parallel to the neighbours drive at the bottom of our garden, I have asked for the fence to be behind our current hedge, but do I need permission for this, as it is not next to the highway -
It is not next to the highway, so you can go up to 2 metres high under permitted development (without planning permission.


..............................That's perfect, as the trees there are not growing well anyway, so would just pull those up and put the boundary fence on our boundary to their drive :)
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby Frog » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:20 am

.....unfortunately we have been refused permission :(

There reason are as follows:

1. The proposed boundary treatment by virtue of its height and location, would reduce the vehicular visibility splay in relation to the existing access to neighbouring property and would present a significant highway safety concern.

2. would appear visually obtrusive within the street scene due to its height and proximity to the highway and would have a detrimental impact on the visual amenity of the street scene by virtue of the intrusion forward of the established building line the side road.

Now is it worth me bothering to appeal in your honest opinions because.......

1. Highways agency report stated - Visibility splay for neighbour coming off his drive will be reduced to 15 metres when it should be 33 metres. But, the Highways agency also stated that they would be happy if it were approved subject to the boundary fence being moved back by 1 metre from the footpath, and all exterior hedges maintained at a max of 1 metre.
***I did send an e-mail back to the planning department as soon as I saw the report, and agreed that we would be happy to go along with this request. My e-mail has never been acknowledged (although I did get a read recipt - which I have kept), but this e-mail never appeared on the website - I was under the impression that all correspondence relating to each planning application (Objection or not), would appear on the website for reference?????? (not 100% sure though???)

2. Another house on the side roads back garden (side of back garden) had a 6ft fence with a 10 foot conifer hedge in front of it - and this is virtually opposite where my fence would be?

I have checked my title deeds and the original plans submitted to the council back in the 60's and there are no covenants stating it is an open plan estate, and I also have a copy of the Land original registry document for the plot. The only covenant is that we can construct and building without getting permission from the original builders (who no longer exist).

Is it worth bothering, or should I just leave the hedge to grow up to 6ft and put up a 1 metre fence, inside the hedge on the part closest to the highway(so the nice hedge is on display to the road rather than fence panels), and then erect a 6ft fence on the other parts which are not in contact with the highway?

grateful for any advise :)
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby despair » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:44 am

The most ludicrous planning stupidity there is concerns fences near roads and pavements

Quite rightly when it comes to sightlines etc they should be 1 metre but elsewhere in many places 6ft6 would be fine
only planning say no

This is compounded into more stupidity when you can legally grow a hedge to dizzy heights in the same place as you cannot install a 2 metre high fence
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby Frog » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:50 am

despair wrote:The most ludicrous planning stupidity there is concerns fences near roads and pavements

Quite rightly when it comes to sightlines etc they should be 1 metre but elsewhere in many places 6ft6 would be fine
only planning say no

This is compounded into more stupidity when you can legally grow a hedge to dizzy heights in the same place as you cannot install a 2 metre high fence


Exactly!!! They have not said that I have to the remove the hedge which IS next to the highway and is over 6ft!!!! ????
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby andrew54 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:47 pm

despair wrote:.... but elsewhere in many places 6ft6 would be fine
only planning say no

Despair this is just your opinion. The planners agree with me that high fences look horrible.
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby andrew54 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:49 pm

Frog wrote:They have not said that I have to the remove the hedge which IS next to the highway and is over 6ft!!!! ????


They have no power to make you do anything about a hedge.

Oh and it isn't the Highways Agency unless you live on a motorway or similar main road. It will be your local Highway Authority.
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby Frog » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:01 pm

andrew54 wrote: local Highway Au


Oh yes of course, silly me ......it is the Highway Authority - it does say that on the paperwork, but I have the memory of a sieve at the moment.

I have sent an e-mail to the planning department to see whether there's any room for negotiating or resubmitting amended plans (not sure if I have to pay again for this though?) - they apparently prefer you to take this route before going to appeal.

I though that keeping the fence behind the hedge would mean that the view from the street scene would be a nice hedge rather than an more ugly fence...... will just have to see what they say.

Will continue to grow hedge (only to a max of 6 or 7ft), and then if we don't get some form of permission I will put up a 1 metre fence inside the boundary still leaving the hedge on view to the outside world :)
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Re: Boundary Fence/Highway Question Please

Postby pilman » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:05 pm

If I have correctly identified the red line on your plan as being alongside the neighbours private drive, then you did not require planning permission from the Local Planning Authority.

Even though you made such an application for permission, it makes no difference to what you are granted permission to do under The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995.
Part 2 Class A refers to Minor Operations, so that as long as you comply with that section of the Statutory Order, planning permission is granted by the Government.

The boundary between two properties as shown on the plan you have posted is not "adjacent to a highway used by vehicular traffic" so that a fence 2 metres high can be erected whenever you chose to do so.
Look at the words used in the GPDO Part 2 as quoted below to confirm that is a fact of planning law that has nothing to do with the local planning authority deciding they don't like such fences.

There is no mention in the GPDO that the fence or wall has to be approved of by anyone other than the erector who needs to secure his boundary.
What it looks like is irrelevant, so those reasons for refusal could have been justified only if you had actually needed the approval of the LPA, but as you did not, nor do not need such approval, you should arrange for the fence to be erected as soon as you want.
Read the GPDO for yourself and you will see what matters are allowed and what are not allowed.
Only height is to be considered, not materials or appearance, although if your property is a listed building that will be a different matter.
PART 2

MINOR OPERATIONS

Class A
Permitted development

A. The erection, construction, maintenance, improvement or alteration of a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure.

Development not permitted
A.1 Development is not permitted by Class A if—
(a) the height of any gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed adjacent to a highway used by vehicular traffic would, after the carrying out of the development, exceed one metre above ground level;

(b) the height of any other gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed would exceed two metres above ground level;

(c) the height of any gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure maintained, improved or altered would, as a result of the development, exceed its former height or the height referred to in sub-paragraph (a) or (b) as the height appropriate to it if erected or constructed, whichever is the greater; or

(d) it would involve development within the curtilage of, or to a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure surrounding, a listed building.

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