Fence and boundary

Fence and boundary

Postby gardenwall33 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:31 am

Hi again,

I intend to fence a boundary (T maks in the conveyvance for my property to fence this boundary) to my property, with a 2m high post rail and pailing fence, with pails /bare face of the fence facing my neighbours land.

The fence line will be installed entirely on my land, and the boundary line has already been agreed with the neighbour and marked with a string line.

Due to ground conditions and to avoid any possibility of trespass onto my neighbours land I will probably install the fence 100mm-200mm inside the agreed string line.

In placing the fence entirely on my land (and then some) what happens to the agreed boundary?
Does the boundary stay where it is as the legal boundary, or does it move to the bare face of the fence?

What happens to the 100mm-200mm gap between the fence and the agreed boundary?
Can my neighbour use that space without my permission as the land owner?
If my neighbour or future neighbours wanted to build an extension or garden shed, could they build up to the fence without my permission, subject to planning permission, permitted development, party wall act, etc. ie on what was my land before the fence was installed?

Once the fence is installed is it worthwhile recording/registering its position with the Land Registry to avoid issues in the future?

Many thanks
GW
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby COGGY » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:55 am

You should place the fence on the correct boundary line. If not then your neighbour can use the land on their side and eventually claim ownership of it.
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby gardenwall33 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:34 am

Hi,

Understood, but if the agreed boundary and the boundary structure is registerd with the Land Registry will that not be protections enough from adverse posession claims from the neighbour?

Thanks
GW
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby despair » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:19 am

The backside of the posts should exactly touch the string line that is the only correct way to fence and mark the boundary

your neighbour will have a hard job claiming trespass of a few inches of concrete bases
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby Conveyancer » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:41 am

gardenwall33 wrote:Understood, but if the agreed boundary and the boundary structure is registerd with the Land Registry will that not be protections enough from adverse posession claims from the neighbour?


No.

The only protection is to get a written acknowledgement from the neighbour that he occupies/uses the land with your consent. Such an acknowledgement should be obtained at regular intervals, say, yearly.
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby kipper » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:42 pm

Use a reputable fencing contractor and they should be able to install correctly according to the string line.
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby Land Registry rep » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:29 pm

As you are referring to agreed boundaries I imagine you have read our online Practice Guide 40 Supplement 4 on the subject?
If not then the link may prove helpful to understand the Land Registry guidance on such matters - section 2 seems to be relevant here
http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/professional/guides/practice-guide-40s4#guide-mark-3
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby arborlad » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:48 pm

gardenwall33 wrote:
Due to ground conditions
GW



Can you be more specific. What you are contemplating is not a good idea.
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby Fairperson » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:50 am

An enquiry for Conveyancer:

Would it be sufficient to send a letter (maybe a solicitor's letter) to the neighbour, stating that:

- the new fence is entirely within the owner's land
- that the boundary remains as represented on the registered plans and deeds
- and that the owner does not consent to the neighbour using the land between the owner's fence and the registered boundary

and that this state of affairs applies indefinitely?

With thanks,
FP
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby Conveyancer » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:44 am

Fairperson wrote:An enquiry for Conveyancer:

Would it be sufficient to send a letter (maybe a solicitor's letter) to the neighbour, stating that:

- the new fence is entirely within the owner's land
- that the boundary remains as represented on the registered plans and deeds
- and that the owner does not consent to the neighbour using the land between the owner's fence and the registered boundary

and that this state of affairs applies indefinitely?

With thanks,
FP


No, though it may help. It more or less amounts to an attempt to impose an agreement on the neighbour unilaterally.

The neighbour's acknowledgement that his occupation/use is with consent is needed. Periodic confirmation is needed to avoid argument that the consent has lapsed. Of course such an acknowledgement will not have the effect of the neighbour giving away any land he actually owns and not settle any dispute as to where the boundary actually is.

There are two types of boundary agreement: informal and formal.

An informal agreement (which does not necessarily need to be in writing) only binds the parties to it. It is in practice not so much an agreement as to where the boundary is, but an agreement that the parties will treat an agreed line (usually represented by some physical feature) as the boundary. Although not binding on successors, such an agreement is likely to be taken into account in any subsequent boundary dispute.

A formal agreement must be made by a deed in which the parties confirm who owns what, with the conformation operating to transfer between the parties any land on the "wrong" side of the agreed line. Such an agreement is binding in the same way as a conveyance or transfer. It is not necessary to define the agreed boundary with precision, though where the agreement is to resolve a dispute the more accurate the plan the better. Any boundary agreed will still be a general boundary unless it has been "determined" in accordance with the Land Registry procedure.

It is important to remember that a formal boundary agreement (including one where the boundary is "determined") does no more than fix a boundary at the date of the agreement. It does not prevent the future operation of the law of adverse possession.
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby Fairperson » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:29 pm

Thank you very much indeed , Conveyancer.
That's very helpful.

Regards
FP
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby arborlad » Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:02 pm

gardenwall33 wrote:............protections enough from adverse posession claims from the neighbour?

Thanks
GW



The best protection from adverse possession is to have your fence abutting the boundary line, that way there is none of your land for your neighbour to possess - adversely or otherwise.

You've chosen a good style of fence, you've chosen to erect it correctly, but perversely, you've chosen to locate it incorrectly thereby creating problems which otherwise wouldn't exist.

It would help to know just what ground conditions exist that would prevent you from fencing to the limit of your land.

I don't know what trespass issues you envisage, but if it's erected correctly, there wont be any trespass, it's inevitable that some will occur during the erection but that will happen with any style of fence or wall.
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby cleo5 » Sun May 24, 2015 3:25 pm

Apologies if this is in the wrong place.
It is a question on a similar subject.

Please help and advise.
My front verge in front of my wire/post fence is about 30ft by 12 feet. It is on my deeds and now registered with the land registry. It abuts an unadopted private lane whose ownership is not known. This piece of land together with a further piece was purchased by the developers around 1976 and offered to us at extra cost when a further application for planning more houses was refused due to drainage problems.
My fence is post and wire erected by the builders to deter thieves etc whilst the property stood empty according to the builder who visited us after we moved in. We purchased the newly built property in 1979.
I planted a hedge in front of the wire. It took years to establish on stony ground from rooted cuttings.

Some years ago the farmer at the end of the lane ( who sold and moved to Hertforshire some years ago) placed a gate across the road and also placed a huge granite house name plate on my piece of stone hedge. He was a friend of ours. We had dinner with them the evening before we went on holiday and at this dinner he made no mention of his intention to put a gate across and erect this stone name plate.
Imagine our horror on returning to see this .
Because his wife was my friend we said nothing(We live and let live and have never had other than good relationships with neighbours we have had in our houses prior to this one.)
Over the years the neighbour to our immediate left( we will call him NJ)o the left has cut this front hedge and mown the grass verge. He offered to do it one day when I was struggling with it and I paid him. -He likes cutting hedges and mowing grass But he cut holes in the hedge to peer through and kept it the height he wanted and since there are hedges all round and he has a further inner leylandii hedge some two feet from our diving wall his almost daily hedge cutting has been hard to bear.
April 24th I noticed a large chunk of dead hedge in this front bit. It was hard to remove as branches had become entangled in the wire and wire netting that NJ has put in front of(but attached to) my straining wires so I had to cut the netting away.
That same evening the irate farmer from the farm about 200 yards up the lane came to say we had destroyed her stock proof fence and it must be repaired. Son in law immediately put new wire up and I consulted a solicitor the next day.
It has always been my fence.
A letter followed from her saying that piece of land was hers and the fence and hedge were hers . This was fisrt time I ever had any indication that she claimed my land as hers. It also mentioned it was taken by adverse posession by the previous farmer (our friend) in 1987
Solicitor advised her letter needed no reply and that there is no question but the land is mine and that he would registered the land as First voluntary registration.
Since husband could die if he has another stroke and I will need to sell in a hurry if widowed then this seemed a good idea.
Land registry shows land is ours up to the road.
We decided high hedge is to hard to maintain and cut it to half the height. Intended replacing dead wood with substitute bushes.
Today a futher letter from farmer to say they contactors were coming today to put in a post and barbed wire fence.
I called the police in view of the fact there might be a breach of the peace.
The farmer came with tractor and had already put in 3 tall posts beside my concrete ones when police arrived.
Arguements had ensued whilst waiting for police.
Another neigbour was there and confirmed our land wa salso on his deeds as being part of the farm.
Policeman advised some resoluion . We agreed to replace broken straining wire and fill in any hedging spaces if they took out the posts they had put in.
The case cannot be resolved so we have to proceed through the court.
How can someone who purports to be a friend do this so underhandedly. It never entered our heads that someone might or could do this.
How can this be put on their deeds without the solicitor concerned making enquiries of the rightful owner.
How can the law allow this.
What can I do? We have legal fees insurance and the solicitor says its ours and we have a good case.
We used to use the lane a lot in the past but once the gate went up we did not use it.(Our drive leads out durther down where it is a public road.)
In the past twelve or so years there are now 2 extra houses have been built unadopted lane and all these have my land as belonging to the farm on their deeds.
What hope have we got against such collusion.
Can we afford a law suit. No .We are on basic pension with small private pension and savings have all gone.
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby Roblewis » Sun May 24, 2015 5:55 pm

Cleo5

Your deeds need to be confirmed and if you are correct immediately erect a boundary chain and post fence along the actual boundary line. This is one of the problems that occur from not fencing a boundary to its full extent. If they had taken it by AP then you would have been informed of the intention by the LR. You have now lost some friends and you must tell them to vacate your land immediately and FOLLOW UP with a clear boundary and an injunction if necessary. There is I am afraid no other way. Forget the errors in the other deeds they do not affect your title.
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Re: Fence and boundary

Postby cleo5 » Sun May 24, 2015 6:03 pm

Cannot thank you enough Rob.
It's good to have a positive suggestion.
Thanks.
Glad I joined this forum.
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