Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby Uriah Heap » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:53 pm

Hi. My son moved into a new house about 18 montha ago. The seller said the fence on the right was his but now the neighbour says it is his fence.

That cant be right becase if yoy look down the side of the neighbours house the fence isnt in line, it is clearly in my sons garden. So it must be his fence -right?

But the neighbour says it is his. He said he put it up over 25 years ago and it is on his side. But you can see it isnt.

What can my son do. The neighbour is getting stroppy because my son wants to take it down and build a low wall.

I know everybody here always says to get the deeds but the nighbours land isnt on the deeds database. My sons deeds say it must be his fence because ther wording says that he must erect and maintain a good and sufficent fence on that side.

Summary:-
Fence is on the right.
My sosn deeds say it is his.
If you look along the border - the side of neighbours house, the fence is jutting into my sons garden.
The seller said it is his fence.

Does the neighbour have a leg to stand on???

Ps i have just thought. If the neighbours house doesnt have any deeds how can it have any legal borders. He wouldnt be able to prove anything if my son just took up the fence when he was at work would he. I know it would cause an arguement but theres already arguments anyway.
Last edited by Uriah Heap on Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:20 am

Hi Uriah,

Fence is on the right

irrelevant

My sosn deeds say it is his.

no they don't

the fence is jutting into my sons garden

not really sure what you mean...

The seller said it is his fence.

he might have made the same mistake you have regarding the deeds

Does the neighbour have a leg to stand on?

yes - especially if he's saying he put it there

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby Uriah Heap » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:35 am

Ok the deeds say my son has to put up a fence but the first owner obviosly put it up. The property chaned hands a few times and now my son has it. Doesnt taht make it his fence now??

The neighbours house is on the border and my sons path runs down the side. If you look along the side of the neighbours house wall the fence dosent line up with it. The neighbours side of the fence lines up with the border so it about 4 inches inside my sons garden. If it was the neighbours fence it would be my sons side of the fence that lined up with the wall which is doesnt.

So your saying all the neighbour has to do is SAY he put it there and it then becomes his fence??? I dont see how that could work. He could jus be lying??

How can he have any borders anyway if the house isnt on the goverments database???
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:42 am

Hi Uriah,

Doesnt taht make it his fence now??

is it the original fence?

The neighbours side of the fence lines up with the border...

that makes more sense now - does the fence end at the neighbour's house?

So your saying all the neighbour has to do is SAY he put it there and it then becomes his fence?

no - I'm saying your son has himself a problem if both of them SAY they own the fence...

How can he have any borders anyway if the house isnt on the goverments database???

you've lost me - this makes little sense.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby despair » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:25 am

If the house has changed hands several times it must be on the Land Registry
everything from at least 40 years ago is

Maybe the house is not actually owned by the neighbour but its rented from a council or housing association in which case sometimes these houses are not r3egistered

your son could request the neighbour proves it by showing him the deeds and the receipt for the fence

i bet someonew was too lazy to remove the old concrete bases to the posts so resited the fence into your sons garden
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby Janieb » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:33 am

despair wrote:If the house has changed hands several times it must be on the Land Registry
everything from at least 40 years ago is


As I read it it's the son's house that has changed hands several times not the neighbours.

However, if the neighbour owns their house and it hasn't changed hands since it became compulsory to report it to Land Registry, then it won't be on their records. There will be deeds somewhere. The neighbour may have them if the mortgage is paid off or they may be held at the bank or a solicitor.
"I prefer rogues to imbeciles, because they sometimes take a rest" Alexandre Dumas (fils)
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:58 am

Hi Uriah,

i bet someonew was too lazy to remove the old concrete bases to the posts so resited the fence into your sons garden

this is definitely a possibility IMHO.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby arborlad » Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:00 am

despair wrote:If the house has changed hands several times it must be on the Land Registry
everything from at least 40 years ago is



http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/public/f ... registered
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby Uriah Heap » Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:32 am

Thanks for the advice everybody.

I dont know If it is the original fence or how long the fence has been there. The neighbour says he put it up more than 25 years ago. The houses were built in the 40's. The second post fron the house stick out into my sons garden and all the others do as well but the first post doesnt. It completely lines up with the neighbours house.

What i meant with the Goverments database is that the nieghbours house isnt on it so there isnt any legal record of where his borders are. So what is to stop my son saying the border isnt where the fence is. If he took the fence up how could there be any come back?

Despiar, yes my son already asked him. The neighbour showed my son a receipt for the fence but that just proves he put it up. If if the fence is in the wrong place it just proves the neighbour put up an ilegal fence. The neighbour wont show my son any deeds because he says they are in the bank and he cant get at them. So that speaks for itself!!!

Doesent my son have the right to see the deeds if they affect his borders?
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby Rosenberg » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:35 pm

If your sons's neighbour's land is unregistered, that doesn't give him fewer legal rights. It just means that you have to look elsewhere to discover where the boundaries are.

If the matter ever went to court (and let's hope it does not, because the costs can be ruinous) a court would look at all the evidence to determine the correct location of the boundary. Foremost amongst these is usually the existence of an established boundary fence. Plans (whether of registered or unregistered land) tend to be secondary considerations, even if they include dimensions - particularly if the discrepancy is just a matter of inches, which it seems to be in your son's case. Boundaries do tend to move slightly over time as fences are replaced; and what matters is whether someone objects to each movement. If they acquiesce, courts tend to look at it as agreement.

As your son purchased his land with the fence in place, I would imagine that is tantamount to agreeing that the fence correctly marks the boundary.

The only remaining question is ownership, and it seems your son's neighbour has proof of that. He probably hasn't produced his deeds because:
a) it is too much trouble to retrieve them from the bank, or
b) he doesn't think it is necessary because he doesn't think you son has a case (and based on the information given I would tend to agree)

I don't think you son would have an automatic right to view his neighbours deeds. I guess only a court could order that.

Has the neighbour offered any explanation for why the fence doesn't line up with a the side of his house? (although I think it would probably be irrelevant as the fence has been there so long.)

Why does your son want to remove the fence and build a lower wall?
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:41 pm

Hi Uriah,

Rosenberg wrote:
I think it would probably be irrelevant as the fence has been there so long

I say:
it is irrelevant as the fence has been there +10 years without being questioned

you wrote:
So what is to stop my son saying the border isnt where the fence is.
where's he going to say it is? and what's he basing this on?

If he took the fence up how could there be any come back?
given it's not his fence (ie someone else's property) and the land on the other side of the fence has been occupied by next door for so long (and therefore is part of next door's legal estate) what do you think?

consider this example:
suppose your son bought a collection of 1000 vinyl LPs and was given a catalogue listing what he was buying.
when he gets it all home he goes to play one but he finds the sleeve empty.
he checks and, thankfully, all the other 999 records are there.
what would he do next?
he would go back to the vendor of course.

if your son thinks his vendor misrepresented what he was selling then he can get advice about going down that avenue.

the neighbour "took" the land decades ago so in the eyes of the law he now owns that land (including the sliver under the fence).

All my non-expert, unqualified understanding and I hope it all makes sense.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby Rosenberg » Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:27 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Rosenberg wrote:
I think it would probably be irrelevant as the fence has been there so long

I say:
it is irrelevant as the fence has been there +10 years without being questioned

What significance do you attach to the 10+year time-frame, Mac?
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby humptydumpty » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:41 pm

Hi Mac,

Depends what was on the vinyl LP's, if it was Mat Munroe, or Barbara Streisand, I wouldn't care how many were missing!!
And I wouldn't have paid much either!!!

Hi Uriah,

Back to fence, I think Rosenberg and Mac have it right. With the fence having been in place for so long it is likely that it could now be considered to be on the neighbours side of the boundary, without evidence to the contrary. Also neighbour has evidence to suggest fence is his.

What evidence does your son have?
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby Uriah Heap » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:50 pm

Thanks for the comments everyone

Here is the evidence, Humpty :-
a) the fence doesnt line up with the house border
B) the vendor said the fence was part of the property that my son bought
c) my sons deeds say it is hos border
d) the neighbour wont show his deeds so I think he must be hiding something.

So you are all feally saying that the fence defines where the border is not the other way round. Is that right?

Rosenberg, yes the neighblur did say why. He said the fence used to run all the way down the side of his house about 2 inches from his wall. He said my son should be grateful that he removed the fence on his path because he now has a wider path -- 6 inches! That is just stupid. It is oviousley a lie because 1 he wouldent be able to put it up without trespassing and 2 he wouldnt be able to maintakn the fence or his wall withouttrespassing.
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Re: Pleas help! Neighbours fence in my sons garden

Postby humptydumpty » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:02 pm

Uriah Heap wrote:Thanks for the comments everyone

Here is the evidence, Humpty :-
a) the fence doesnt line up with the house border
B) the vendor said the fence was part of the property that my son bought
c) my sons deeds say it is hos border
d) the neighbour wont show his deeds so I think he must be hiding something.

So you are all feally saying that the fence defines where the border is not the other way round. Is that right?


Your evidence;

a) irrelevant.

b) irrelevant.

c) where does it say the "border" is?

d) irrelevant and speculation.

I am saying, given the time frame and without evidence to the contrary, it could be accepted that the fence is entirely on your neighbours land and that your son land extends up to it and no further.
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