Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby arborlad » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:20 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:- when the locked gate went up was he told who to contact should he need access?


:?:
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:26 pm

arborlad wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:- when the locked gate went up was he told who to contact should he need access?


:?:

what's up?
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby jonahinoz » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:06 am

Hi,

Presumably the path was originally there for the benefit of the four houses that it serves. Presumably the cottages were sold (and bought) with the implied right to use the path. Nobody, other than the occupants of the four houses, and the owner of the path, have any expressed or implied right to use the path. And yes, that includes (excludes?) erecting a gate accessed from the road. And a fence across the new gate.

Does the 1925 Act have anything to say about this?

Nobody is entitled to object to a gate being used as a fence panel. The path owner can object to the gate being used as a gate to access his path.

I am unable to visulise where the new gate is, in relation to the the boundaries of the four houses. Is it on the end of the T-bar Or along the T-bar, and if so is it at the end or near the middle?

Assuming there is no documented access from houses on the other side of the path, the two houses, that back onto the ends of the path, could extend their gardens over the path, without encroaching onto the access to the middle two houses. Result ... a miffed man-with-gate, two happy residents, and two po-faced residents. But nobody would actually be losing anything they are entitled to ... apart from the owner of the path. The middle two gardens could also be extended over the path, with rights of way granted to the two outer gardens, but that would be starting to get untidy.

I'm not a lover of land-grabbing, but if the law says that you can do it, it would be silly not to. If you don't, somebody else will. The ideal solution would be to find the owner of the path.

John W
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby muz666 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:17 am

MacadamB53 wrote:when the locked gate went up was he told who to contact should he need access?

As he has no legal interest in the alleyway there would be no requirement to inform him, the entrance gate was added quite a while ago (4+yrs) way before he added a gate to his fence (2.5 months). If he or anyone else needed access it would not be too difficult to see what houses there were linked to the alleyway and then approach them.

jonahinoz wrote:Presumably the path was originally there for the benefit of the four houses that it serves. Presumably the cottages were sold (and bought) with the implied right to use the path. Nobody, other than the occupants of the four houses, and the owner of the path, have any expressed or implied right to use the path. And yes, that includes (excludes?) erecting a gate accessed from the road. And a fence across the new gate.

Yes the alleyway is there for the benefit terraced houses and in their deeds it is mentioned with RoW, the properties that back onto it have no mention of the alleyway and also have side access.

jonahinoz wrote:I am unable to visulise where the new gate is, in relation to the the boundaries of the four houses. Is it on the end of the T-bar Or along the T-bar, and if so is it at the end or near the middle?

The new gate is on the horizontal part of the T, but biased to one end.

jonahinoz wrote:Assuming there is no documented access from houses on the other side of the path, the two houses, that back onto the ends of the path, could extend their gardens over the path, without encroaching onto the access to the middle two houses. Result ... a miffed man-with-gate, two happy residents, and two po-faced residents. But nobody would actually be losing anything they are entitled to ... apart from the owner of the path. The middle two gardens could also be extended over the path, with rights of way granted to the two outer gardens, but that would be starting to get untidy.

The two outer houses out of the 4 with RoW already go fully to the boundary in question, the inner 2 have the alley at the top of the garden, the title maps shows it like this too. The new gate in question is located along the T part behind one of the inner houses, so fencing it off would be tricky.

Thanks John W for your input, I am trying to locate the owner as this would help resolve the issue
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:03 am

Hi muz,

who put the gate up?
does the alley have multiple entrances?

if not I don't understand what benefit you think he's gaining (over someone else's land that has NOTHING to do with you)

have you considered making a joint Adverse Possession claim?

Kind regards, Mac
Last edited by MacadamB53 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby span » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:04 am

WHO added the entrance gate four years ago? Under what authority or permission was it erected?
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby muz666 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:55 am

MacadamB53 wrote:who put the gate up?
does the alley have multiple entrances?

span wrote:WHO added the entrance gate four years ago? Under what authority or permission was it erected?

The entrance gate was erected jointly by the residents who have a direct concern to the alleyway after a few security issues.
No there is a only a single entrance.

My issue is that there is a gate instead of a fence, if left unlocked / open, (which we have no control over what state of locked or unlocked it is left in) then it poses an issue of security as his propery is open / unsecure at the front.

My concerns are driven primarily by security and to a less extent that I cannot see why he would require a gate there in the first place.

MacadamB53 wrote:have you considered making a joint Adverse Possession claim?

That's the sort of advice I am looking for, I have no idea how to go about this, but would definitely consider it.
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby arborlad » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:25 am

muz666 wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:have you considered making a joint Adverse Possession claim?

That's the sort of advice I am looking for, I have no idea how to go about this, but would definitely consider it.



No one can claim adverse possession of land if their presence on it is explained by something else. You have a documented Right of Way so a claim would fail.
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby span » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:34 am

It's a bit rich, you lot taking liberties with someone else's property by erecting a gate on it without the owner's permission, and then complaining about someone else perfectly legitimately installing a gate to their own fence.

How about you mind your own business, let alley owner mind his, and let fence gate bloke mind his?
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:02 am

Hi muz,

The entrance gate was erected jointly by the residents who have a direct concern to the alleyway after a few security issues.

I think most people would do the same in your situation.

there is a only a single entrance.

how do you guys step onto the alley from your properties? (garden gates? back doors?)

My issue is that there is a gate instead of a fence, if left unlocked / open, (which we have no control over what state of locked or unlocked it is left in) then it poses an issue of security as his propery is open / unsecure at the front.

you may have an issue with what he's done but I'm afraid there's no legal action you can take.

Mac wrote:have you considered making a joint Adverse Possession claim?

the OP wrote:That's the sort of advice I am looking for, I have no idea how to go about this, but would definitely consider it.


would you then look to divide the alley up and incorporate it into your gardens and extinguish the ROW?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:06 am

arborlad wrote:
muz666 wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:have you considered making a joint Adverse Possession claim?

That's the sort of advice I am looking for, I have no idea how to go about this, but would definitely consider it.



No one can claim adverse possession of land if their presence on it is explained by something else. You have a documented Right of Way so a claim would fail.

Hi arborlad,

you're right of course - none of the owners of a legal right to be there would likely be successful.

but if another person - say a committee/association/company set up by the owners - made a claim they may well succeed.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby mugwump » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:36 am

but if another person - say a committee/association/company set up by the owners - made a claim they may well succeed.
Surely the new committee/association/company would still need to meet the requirement to have exclusively used it for x years. The years of use by its constituent members can not be counted due to their ROWs so the clock would start from now. Which is a bit late as the person has already got a gate on to the path so there is no exclusivity.
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:51 am

mugwump wrote:
but if another person - say a committee/association/company set up by the owners - made a claim they may well succeed.
Surely the new committee/association/company would still need to meet the requirement to have exclusively used it for x years. The years of use by its constituent members can not be counted due to their ROWs so the clock would start from now. Which is a bit late as the person has already got a gate on to the path so there is no exclusivity.

the committee could claim to be in possession from the day it's formed - action number one being to fence it off from trespassers...
12 years later it could make an AP claim...
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby mugwump » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:08 pm

From reading around, I am not sure that a company or committee is capable of claiming adverse possession.

Powell v McFarlane [1977] makes the point '“Factual possession signifies an appropriate degree of physical control. It must be a single and [exclusive] possession, though there can be a single possession exercised on behalf of several persons jointly' which I read to mean that only a person and not a formed entity can claim possession

This appears to be confirmed in J A Pye (Oxford) Limited v Graham [2002] where it continues to only mention person

ETA
LRA quite clearly states person, which, since there is no definition within the act of person then the normal meaning must be assumed precluding company/committee etc
'
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Re: Fence / boundary / R0A issue

Postby muz666 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:09 pm

span wrote:It's a bit rich, you lot taking liberties with someone else's property by erecting a gate on it without the owner's permission, and then complaining about someone else perfectly legitimately installing a gate to their own fence.

How about you mind your own business, let alley owner mind his, and let fence gate bloke mind his?

That's a little aggressive, maybe you should take your own advice? The fence gate maybe legitimate, but access to the alley via that gate definitely isn't!

MacadamB53 wrote:how do you guys step onto the alley from your properties? (garden gates? back doors?)

Each of the 4 houses have a gate that accesses the the alley.
MacadamB53 wrote:you may have an issue with what he's done but I'm afraid there's no legal action you can take.

I had a feeling that might be the case, but will pursue it as the issue needs resolving, first port of call would be to track the owner down.

MacadamB53 wrote:the committee could claim to be in possession from the day it's formed - action number one being to fence it off from trespassers...
12 years later it could make an AP claim...

Which could be to fence over the new gate possibly. I would prefer to do this legally though
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