Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue May 12, 2015 1:29 pm

Hi constance,

They have said they will not approve an application as it is, so there's no point

your local authority are not the final decision makers.

planning permission is granted by the relevant Secretary of State.
for practicalities sake, decisions are deferred to an executive agency called The Planning Inspectorate.
again, for practicalities sake, this agency in turn defers decisions to the local authorities.

if you are dissatisfied with the decision made by your local authority you can appeal for free to The Inspectorate.
they will appoint an inspector - a bona fide planning expert - who will re-assess your original application as if it hadn't been deferred to your LPA.

only after such an appeal would you have a final outcome.

the comments made by local council employees should not deter you if you think you have a case.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby arborlad » Tue May 12, 2015 1:49 pm

constance_gardener wrote:

"Also could I leave the fence posts at this height, they are wired on the inside for climbers.
I thought this would give us extra security while the new plants fill in?
This is what we have done at thefro to 1200mm all g line of sight but they haven't mentioned this area. So I am currently assuming the wiring doesn't constitute a fence?"

Thanks again



You have to ensure you are comparing like for like. One side might be separated from the roadway by a narrow verge, another side might be separated with a verge, a footway and another verge before you get to the roadway.
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby constance_gardener » Thu May 14, 2015 10:10 pm

Hi Everyone,

Some news just in:
"The alterations indicated in my email of 10 th March 2015 are to make the development more acceptable in terms of the character and appearance of the area, which are matters of planning harm rather than visibility splay. "

Sorry to sound flippant, but in leyman's terms they are basically they don't like it?

Its a horizontal screen fence, they are becoming quite popular, I am aware of three others in the same style and all adjacent to the highway. It looks like the one in the link below rather than lap or feather edge. We're currently painting it green to make it less offensive.

http://www.kirsch-korff.com/Pages/pictu ... ngeles.htm

Can I ask another question regarding definition of highway, after WCA 1981 a path is considered highway but have just read some info that makes me think we only have to consider the edge of the road rather than encompass the path too. The corner we live on is part of a bridleway public path, so has been in use long before 1981.

Public path
A public path is defined as a highway which is either a footpath or a bridleway (section 66, WCA 1981). The expression public path was in common use before being defined in the WCA 1981. Therefore it should not be assumed that its use is always intended to reflect the statutory meaning, particularly if the use predates the WCA 1981.
http://uk.practicallaw.com/2-516-8168#a493199

Oh still nothing back on the extra 25cm, which now makes even less sense now they say its not about splay.
Thank again
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu May 14, 2015 10:55 pm

Hi constance,

The corner we live on is part of a bridleway public path

that may be so (are you sure it's just a bridleway?), but since you've confirmed it is used by vehicular traffic it doesn't matter which type of highway it is.

have just read some info that makes me think we only have to consider the edge of the road rather than encompass the path too.

what have you been reading? this isn't my understanding...

...or are you saying there are two separate highways running beside one another - 1. the road running over the carriageway 2. the bridleway running over the path? (this would be rather unusual).

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby arborlad » Thu May 14, 2015 11:47 pm

constance_gardener wrote:Hi Everyone,

Some news just in:
"The alterations indicated in my email of 10 th March 2015 are to make the development more acceptable in terms of the character and appearance of the area, which are matters of planning harm rather than visibility splay. "

Sorry to sound flippant, but in leyman's terms they are basically saying they don't like the appearance of it?




Yes, that is my understanding of it.
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby constance_gardener » Fri May 15, 2015 12:21 am

The definition quoted suggests if it was in use before 1981 it may not be considered part of the highway?
I wish pain English didn't require a legal dictionary.... I can't study as I used to apparently i have ME, I'm yet to be covinced.

This bit was a section of unbuilt land between two areas until the 80's.

Public path
A public path is defined as a highway which is either a footpath or a bridleway (section 66, WCA 1981). The expression public path was in common use before being defined in the WCA 1981. Therefore it should not be assumed that its use is always intended to reflect the statutory meaning, particularly if the use predates the WCA 1981.
http://uk.practicallaw.com/2-516-8168#a493199

I've found at least 4 other fences in the same style on my travels locally.

I guess application over the weekend as is? Surely I can argue this point as I see more of them.
I'm sure I could get some of the compliments in writing from my neighbours.
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri May 15, 2015 8:06 am

Hi constance,

you've mentioned on more than one occasion that there is vehicular traffic passing along the road adjacent to your fence.
you've also mentioned that there is a pavement made up beside this road for pedestrians.

so how could the road be a bridleway? is it defined as such on the definitive map and statement?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby constance_gardener » Fri May 15, 2015 11:18 am

The corner is defined as part of the original bridleway in this document
Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981 - Hertfordshire County Council

Does this help me?

As you can see the visibility is not tge issue its the style from her email.

The extra hedging is in behind the fence now along with what remained after what had to be lifted for the posts.
So, I thought, the permission should be obtained for it with leafy coverage and the fence painted a muted green behind.

Its just with the info above if it still has to be moved back and that info is applicable, I could move it the metre back and be outside if planning control? This would suggest I could measure from the edge of the road rather than encompass the path and have to measure back from the boundary.
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby arborlad » Fri May 15, 2015 12:35 pm

constance_gardener wrote:As you can see the visibility is not tge issue its the style from her email.



I don't think there is any point in pursuing this particular aspect, the LA have quite clearly indicated it is not relevant, it is the general appearance and aesthetics of the area that is.

If a 2m fence in that area appears obtrusive or overbearing or not in keeping with the overall street scene, it will always be so, no matter how you try to obscure it or disguise it.
Last edited by arborlad on Fri May 15, 2015 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri May 15, 2015 1:04 pm

Hi constance,

The corner is defined as part of the original bridleway in this document

was there supposed to be a link to a document?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby constance_gardener » Fri May 15, 2015 10:25 pm

I'll copy and past & change the names. We live on 'Anywhere Avenue'.

"Commences at the end of FP## thence NW direction to join So&so Road. Re-commences from end of Anywhere Avenue in a North Westerly direction for 130 metres to join FP##.
Width
Limitations"

If this is so, the path is 180cm, the fence 25cm from boundary, so in effect would we then be out of planning control?

I thought the hedge question had been confirmed as OK in previous posts?
Don't lots of people do this from what I have now gathered not just from here?
Also if moved back to 2.25m its OK to look the way it does?
These fences are gaining popularity everywhere.
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby constance_gardener » Fri May 15, 2015 10:56 pm

Hmm having reread that, have they knocked us out of the FP system by building us and adopting the highway?

Is it in anyway arguable? The other FP's would just be dead ends otherwise, so it has always been part of them.

I dunno application and appeal?
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri May 15, 2015 11:00 pm

Hi constance,

"Commences at the end of FP## thence NW direction to join So&so Road.
Re-commences from end of Anywhere Avenue in a North Westerly direction for 130 metres to join FP##.
Width
Limitations"


gotcha...

If this is so, the path is 180cm, the fence 25cm from boundary

you've lost me...

without sight of a plan I have no idea whereabouts the bridleway is in relation to your fence.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby constance_gardener » Sat May 16, 2015 12:26 am

Found this on planning appeals:

Personal circumstances 2.19 The personal circumstances, including such matters as health, housing needs and welfare, of persons suspected of acting in breach of planning control must be taken into account when deciding whether to take enforcement action. (See R v Kerrier DC, ex parte Uzell [1996] 71 P&CR 566).

I've asked the council to take our health in to consideration?
Offered our DR's/Consultants confirmation etc.

Mum had been deteriorating again and was in on the Monday for an emergency appt with the consultant. The 21 day time limit happened the next day while highly anxious already.

The prescriptions had been poisoning her again...
I've just had this CFS/ ME diagnosis, they offered the council to come assess our needs???
Other than that will not entertain the problems we are having.
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Re: Fence Adjacent to Highway Issue

Postby constance_gardener » Sat May 16, 2015 11:38 pm

Hi Mac,

Here's an idea

The blue lines denote the FP's mentioned in the document.
The red lines are paths that join up to them. I think they are part of the FP's but don't have the time to go through a check all of them.
The yellow line is the main high road.
We're the purple dot, which would be the corner of 'Anywhere Aveneue'.

Also am I able to use that bit about heath in personal circumstances to stop them?

Thanks again, sorry for the delay.
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