Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby cassiopeia » Tue May 12, 2015 8:31 pm

I have always assumed that my title deeds define the maximum size of permissible fence. These state

The Transferee shall not erect any structure, or hang out and washing, or grow any plant that would exceed three feet in height on that part of the plan coloured yellow ... (which is all of it).


Lately I observed someone erecting a much larger fence. He claimed his landlady had enquired about maximum fence height, and the title deeds only apply for a limited time, and these are superseded by those stated on the planning portal site. I think he means this:

Fences, gates and garden walls:

Planning Permission: You will need to apply for planning permission if you wish to erect or add to a fence, wall or gate and: it would be over 1 metre high and next to a highway used by vehicles (or the footpath of such a highway); or over 2 metres high elsewhere; or your right to put up or alter fences, walls and gates is removed by an article 4 direction or a planning condition


my front garden is partly separated from the road by a both a parallel pedestrian path which is in turn in front of allocated parking bays before the road. The side garden is astride a pedestrian path separating houses but join two different roads at right angles. Therefore, I don't think these are limited to 3 feet.

Two questions,

1) is his claim credible, do deeds run out?
2) would I be able to build a larger fence than three feet?

These back to back houses are arranged a square block of four, with each house occupying one quarter of the square. This means they have a front and side garden but no back.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue May 12, 2015 9:26 pm

Hi cassiopeia,

the "deed" you mention is a positive covenant and your neighbour (or his landlady) is correct insofar as they only run with the individual not the land - so if the current owner is not the person who was party to the covenant then it has effectively expired.

you can't erect a fence over 1m high if it is adjacent to a highway used by vehicular traffic.

the highway is not just the metalled carriageway - it also includes pavements.

how are the parking bays distinguished from the carriageway and pavement?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby Collaborate » Tue May 12, 2015 10:54 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:the "deed" you mention is a positive covenant and your neighbour (or his landlady) is correct insofar as they only run with the individual not the land - so if the current owner is not the person who was party to the covenant then it has effectively expired.


Hi Mac

How can a deed which says what an owner shall not do be a positive covenant?

Collab.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby Collaborate » Tue May 12, 2015 10:58 pm

Hi cassiopeia,

A covenant, to be enforceable, must attach in some way to a parcel of land. The owner of some other land must be entitled to enforce the covenant (the deeds will tell you which). Who do the deeds say is entitled to enforce it?

Collab.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue May 12, 2015 11:02 pm

Collaborate wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:the "deed" you mention is a positive covenant and your neighbour (or his landlady) is correct insofar as they only run with the individual not the land - so if the current owner is not the person who was party to the covenant then it has effectively expired.


Hi Mac

How can a deed which says what an owner shall not do be a positive covenant?

Collab.
whoops! apologies to the OP
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby arsie » Wed May 13, 2015 1:14 am

Hi cassiopeia,
do you know for sure that this chap's property has the same 'fences' clause in the deeds as yours?
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby cassiopeia » Wed May 13, 2015 8:42 am

No, I'm not sure about his clause, unfortunately he was the tenant and seemed reluctant to give me the landlady's details.

However, a few of the neighbours seem aware of the rules for front gardens in the area, I think it's termed' 'open space', and claim the same 3 foot rule. So irrespective of the rules I wouldn't be popular erecting large fences These people are always those who live in large detached houses with a back garden, and aren't disadvantaged of course.

I must add that the rule requiring washing and hedges not exceeding 3 feet is flagrantly and widely disregarded. Some have hedges towering up 5 metres! It's a matter of what you can get away with around here.

The pavement or path issue is complex and I need to post a picture, unfortunately this forum doesn't allow me attachments. The parking bays are designated and lie between the front path and the road. The side path separates my house from the next but each end of the path ends at two separate roads, don't all paths?
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed May 13, 2015 9:09 am

Hi cassiopeia,

if you erected a fence this would be a breach of the covenant so the owner of any benefitting properties would be entitled to seek damages from you to compensate them for the lost benefit.

in cases where many properties in a housing estate are deemed to benefit from an open plan front garden then each homeowner would likely receive a very small sum indeed - making it less worthwhile taking it to court.

if others have already breached any part of a similar covenant (ie have a washing line) this would reduce (or even negate) the benefit for all - it would certainly negate it for the owners who've already breached.

they would not be entitled to demand you remove the fence.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby Collaborate » Wed May 13, 2015 9:36 am

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi cassiopeia,

if you erected a fence this would be a breach of the covenant so the owner of any benefitting properties would be entitled to seek damages from you to compensate them for the lost benefit.

in cases where many properties in a housing estate are deemed to benefit from an open plan front garden then each homeowner would likely receive a very small sum indeed - making it less worthwhile taking it to court.

if others have already breached any part of a similar covenant (ie have a washing line) this would reduce (or even negate) the benefit for all - it would certainly negate it for the owners who've already breached.

they would not be entitled to demand you remove the fence.

Kind regards, Mac


+1
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby cassiopeia » Wed May 13, 2015 2:35 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi cassiopeia,

the "deed" you mention is a positive covenant and your neighbour (or his landlady) is correct insofar as they only run with the individual not the land - so if the current owner is not the person who was party to the covenant then it has effectively expired.

you can't erect a fence over 1m high if it is adjacent to a highway used by vehicular traffic.

the highway is not just the metalled carriageway - it also includes pavements.

how are the parking bays distinguished from the carriageway and pavement?

Kind regards, Mac


Mac your responses are contradictory. Are you saying the Landlady in the other house erecting the fence is OK whereas I'm not? Surely we both are are both in the same situation. Very few people have lived here long enough to be the original owner if that's what you mean, I've lived here longer than most ~24yrs, but I'm not the original purchaser.

What is the definition of 'adjacent'. Adjacent usually means next to. The pavement is next to the parking bay not the road. Any fence would be 7 metres from the minor road concerned because the parking bays are between the road and the path.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby arborlad » Wed May 13, 2015 2:48 pm

cassiopeia wrote:What is the definition of 'adjacent'. Adjacent usually means next to. .



'Adjacent' is deliberately vague to allow for some interpretation of the guidelines - it is not the same as 'abut', which is very precise.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby arsie » Wed May 13, 2015 3:08 pm

cassiopeia wrote:No, I'm not sure about his clause, unfortunately he was the tenant and seemed reluctant to give me the landlady's details. (1)

However, a few of the neighbours seem aware of the rules for front gardens in the area, I think it's termed' 'open space', and claim the same 3 foot rule. So irrespective of the rules I wouldn't be popular erecting large fences (2)

I must add that the rule requiring washing and hedges not exceeding 3 feet is flagrantly and widely disregarded. Some have hedges towering up 5 metres! It's a matter of what you can get away with around here. (3)

The pavement or path issue is complex and I need to post a picture, unfortunately this forum doesn't allow me attachments. The parking bays are designated and lie between the front path and the road. The side path separates my house from the next but each end of the path ends at two separate roads, don't all paths? (4)

(1) You can download any deeds/plans from the Land Registry for a small fee - see here https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds

(2) This 'rule' is in the spirit of the Highways/LPA rule about fence height next to a highway.

(3) You may put up a 2m fence without planning permission. Hedges have no restrictions. I understand ignoring a 3 foot height limit for hanging washing out to dry, if that is the rule.

(4) The site is limited and most people put their pics on a free hosting site and link to them.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed May 13, 2015 3:38 pm

Hi cassiopeia,

as I thought I'd already indicated, please disregard the following part of my contribution to your thread:

the "deed" you mention is a positive covenant and your neighbour (or his landlady) is correct insofar as they only run with the individual not the land - so if the current owner is not the person who was party to the covenant then it has effectively expired.

I mis-read your opening post in haste - sorry.

the rest of my contributions are correct.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby cassiopeia » Wed May 13, 2015 9:21 pm

Here's the proposed fence in blue. My second plan was to withdraw it to the dotted line and continue the rest of it on the side path. Is this permissible? The yellow part is my property.

https://f3a86097-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.goo ... edirects=0
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed May 13, 2015 10:41 pm

Hi cassiopeia,

erecting any fence would be a breach of the covenant so if you're going to do it you may as well go for your preferred option.

those sections adjacent to the highway will need to be no taller 1m though (ie the 'L' shape section).

Kind regards, Mac
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