Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby arsie » Wed May 13, 2015 11:32 pm

'Adjacent' is vague.

I personally would argue that the blue fence could reasonably be 2m, given that the highway view is not blocked for anyone maneuvering or driving. 1.5m (near as dammit 5 feet), as you have indicated on your plan, seems wholly reasonable under the circumstances.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu May 14, 2015 12:16 am

Hi cassiopeia,
arsie wrote:I personally would argue that the blue fence could reasonably be 2m, given that the highway view is not blocked for anyone maneuvering or driving. 1.5m (near as dammit 5 feet), as you have indicated on your plan, seems wholly reasonable under the circumstances.
not sure who 'arsie' would be having his argument with because the only point of argument if you erect a 1.5m tall fence along those blues lines is whether any part of it is 'adjacent' to a highway used by vehicular traffic.

this is because planning permission is granted by Part 2 Class A of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development)(England) Order 2015 - the GPDO - for all garden fences 2m high or less unless they've been erected 'adjacent' to a highway used by vehicular traffic (or they've been erected in the garden of a listed building).

a fence abutting a footpath that runs beside a carriageway has, without doubt, been erected 'adjacent' to a highway used by vehicular traffic - so it has not been granted planning permission by the GPDO.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby arsie » Thu May 14, 2015 1:12 am

If I quote the full text it is clear Mac that the 'rules' are deliberately vague because
arsie wrote:'Adjacent' is vague.

I personally would argue that the blue fence could reasonably be 2m, given that the highway view is not blocked for anyone maneuvering or driving. 1.5m (near as dammit 5 feet), as you have indicated on your plan, seems wholly reasonable under the circumstances.

''Argue' is a term for putting a case, Mac. The L shaped space is a cul de sac so there is hardly going to be much passing traffic is there? All that will happen there is that cars will use it for turning round. So a 5 foot fence is not going to block the view for passing traffic.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby cassiopeia » Thu May 14, 2015 3:49 pm

erecting any fence would be a breach of the covenant


Your posts make no sense to me Mac. The rules as I stated in my OP only restrict fences over 3 feet, so these would allowed anywhere. Moreover neither am I convinced any of the proposed fences are adjacent to a highway or a path bordering a highway, as you can see from the map. If you think not then explain clearly why, after examining the map I've posted closely.

Moreover the covenant clearly states this applies to fences and plants that would exceed three feet in height such as hedges. See my OP. Of the 10 houses in my Cul de Sac alone only two currently don't break the rule in some way, including my own regarding hedges. Some houses have hedges and Trees growing to 5 metres. So presumably if they sue me I could do the same to them. Ironically the two people who are kicking up a fuss break not only the 3 feet rule but probably also 2 metre rule, one of which partly obstructs the view of the adjoining main road

No fence I proposed would block traffic visibility.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby mr sheen » Thu May 14, 2015 4:28 pm

The restricted covenants to which you refer are put on lots of new developments. As time goes on people break them knowing that it would be extremely costly for neighbours to seek to enforce them via the courts. On some developments all owners abide by the restrictive covenants out of courtesy for their neighbours but as soon as it becomes the 'norm' on the development for them to be broken, it becomes even more problematic to enforce them.

You seem to suggest that the ignoring of the restrictive covenants has become widespread and therefore it would be a foolish (and/or very wealthy) person who would pursue legal action to try to get them enforced against a single other occupant.

I feel a good response to those complaining in a situation where there is widespread contravention of restrictive covenants is to go ahead and if a formal complaint materialises reply in short....I understand your frustration with the widespread contravention of restrictive covenants by the vast majority of occupants on the development, including yourself. I am also not happy about the situation and my actions are in protest at the widespread contravention by others. Within 5 days of all contraventions of all restrictive covenants being removed across the development, mine will also be removed.

This indicates that I am also adversely affected; the practice is widespread (ie the norm); there's no point taking me to court since I've offered to restore it as soon as everyone else does....including the complainant.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu May 14, 2015 4:30 pm

Hi cassiopeia,

if your proposed fence is to be less than 3ft tall then I don't see why you're looking for advice.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby Collaborate » Thu May 14, 2015 6:39 pm

mr sheen wrote:... as soon as it becomes the 'norm' on the development for them to be broken, it becomes even more problematic to enforce them.

You seem to suggest that the ignoring of the restrictive covenants has become widespread and therefore it would be a foolish (and/or very wealthy) person who would pursue legal action to try to get them enforced against a single other occupant.



I agree. Go ahead and do what you want regarding the covenant.

If the blue fence in the NE corner is adjacent to the pavement then it is adjacent to the highway. Highway includes the pavement. You may get away with erecting a fence higher than 1m, but if someone notifies the LPA within 4 years and they serve an enforcement notice you'll have to either apply for retrospective PP or lower it to 1m.

If on the other hand the green line on the L shape is the boundary of your land and not the pavement it might be that the LPA consider it not to be adjacent to the highway. Different LPAs have different rules as to what counts as adjacent. They seem to average at around 2m, but could be a little more.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby cassiopeia » Thu May 14, 2015 7:20 pm

Collaborate wrote:
mr sheen wrote:... as soon as it becomes the 'norm' on the development for them to be broken, it becomes even more problematic to enforce them.

You seem to suggest that the ignoring of the restrictive covenants has become widespread and therefore it would be a foolish (and/or very wealthy) person who would pursue legal action to try to get them enforced against a single other occupant.



I agree. Go ahead and do what you want regarding the covenant.

If the blue fence in the NE corner is adjacent to the pavement then it is adjacent to the highway. Highway includes the pavement. You may get away with erecting a fence higher than 1m, but if someone notifies the LPA within 4 years and they serve an enforcement notice you'll have to either apply for retrospective PP or lower it to 1m.

If on the other hand the green line on the L shape is the boundary of your land and not the pavement it might be that the LPA consider it not to be adjacent to the highway. Different LPAs have different rules as to what counts as adjacent. They seem to average at around 2m, but could be a little more.


Collaborate

I think you were referring to me.

My ground property is indeed 2 metres from the road in my case, that's the purpose of the L shape. Regarding the front, if I can't build it beside the path beside the allocated parking spaces, I could build it further back, hence my suggestion of the dotted blue line. The L shape is already 2 metres back. I assume the side path is not adjacent, and is irrelevant?

Unfortunately I need to build a fence larger than 3 feet since a large dog can surmount this easily when fully grown
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu May 14, 2015 8:01 pm

Hi cassiopeia,

[i]neither am I convinced any of the proposed fences are adjacent to a highway or a path bordering a highway, as you can see from the map. If you think not then explain clearly why, after examining the map I've posted closely[/u]

if the white space immediately above the two blue lines which form an 'L' shape is not part of the "front path" or "side path" then you are correct.

I had assumed the opposite... (which I did explain)

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby cassiopeia » Fri May 15, 2015 10:44 am

The L shape is grassed garden land belonging to the council, only the yellow part is mine.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri May 15, 2015 11:16 am

Hi cassiopeia,
cassiopeia wrote:The L shape is grassed garden land belonging to the council, only the yellow part is mine.
then it is more than likely part of the highway - verges beside roads almost always are.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby Collaborate » Fri May 15, 2015 11:18 am

I would say then that provided your proposed fence is no closer than 2m (or whichever distance you LPA uses) to the road, it falls within permitted development. I do not believe that the grassed area is part of the highway.
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri May 15, 2015 1:02 pm

Hi cassiopeia,

who cuts that grass?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby cassiopeia » Sat May 16, 2015 2:55 pm

I mow not only the L shaped piece of land including the grass around a lamp post situated on it. I also mow all of the detached part beyond the grass in that quadrant shaped area

I've had a bit of a row with the council about the detached part because people kept parking on it, but the council refused to do anything to stop them, like erect a bollard. I said if it's yours you cut and flatten it due to tyre damage and get them to stop accessing my part through your land. However there is no fence going in there. I might plant something sharp and scratchy like a rose bush on my part of that quadrant (beyond 2m from the highway).
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Re: Erecting fence in garden to secure dog

Postby cassiopeia » Sat May 16, 2015 3:04 pm

If just been reading this about Covenants. I can't imagine anyone going through all this minefield to sue me, especially if they are breaking it themselves through erecting bushes greater than 3 feet in height.

viewtopic.php?t=1727
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