Please help with who has ownership?

Please help with who has ownership?

Postby suzukibiker68 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:27 pm

My neighbour erected a fence, replacing my fencing several years ago without any permission. This is in exactly the same spot as the old fence on my boundary. This was not an issue until recently when I have placed security spikes on the fence due to being burgled, whereby he has demanded (swearing and shouting) I remove them as it is his fence as he paid for it. I told him this is not the case as he had no right to replace my fence for a higher one 9 years ago. He chose to erect a new fence on my land and the right of ownership and usage is mine. Am I correct? The main point is, he is against me screwing the items to the top of the fence but in my opinion it has been erected without my say so on my land and therefore I have a right to do this. Advice please?
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby mr sheen » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:08 pm

The person who paid for and erected a fence owns it and controls what happens to it. If you don't remove the additions to his fence, he may well remove them for you.
If you didn't like him replacing the old fence 9 years ago, and felt it was on your land even though this would be difficult to prove, you should have taken action before 9 years had passed.
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby Collaborate » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:30 pm

I have a different analogy.

If my neighbour demolishes my front boundary wall then builds in its place a new, better wall than before, they do not thereby own it. They are replacing something they were not entitled to remove in the first place.

I therefore do not necessarily think that your neighbour owns the fence. Dig out your deeds or any evidence that the fence is on your land and present it to him.
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby mr sheen » Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:15 am

Collaborate wrote:I have a different analogy.

If my neighbour demolishes my front boundary wall then builds in its place a new, better wall than before, they do not thereby own it. They are replacing something they were not entitled to remove in the first place.

I therefore do not necessarily think that your neighbour owns the fence. Dig out your deeds or any evidence that the fence is on your land and present it to him.


Yes Collaborate...and if you took action immediately by making it clear he has removed your property and you can prove it was your property, you may well be on a winner...but that is not he case here....it was changed 9 years ago and the OP acquiesced to that change.

Ownership can be proven by presenting documentary evidence of ownership and the person having the most evidence that they own it wins.
'A' has a receipt that proves he paid for the materials and the erection of the fence and owns the land for which it is the boundary feature. In most cases that would be more than enough to prove A owns the fence.
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby MacadamB53 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:39 am

Hi mr sheen,

you seems to be suggesting that owning some adjoining land is good evidence you erected a fence on said land.

the point being discussed is when neighbour A replaces a fence which was known to be stood on neighbour B's land.

I fail to understand how he can claim it is his fence if he erected it along the same line.

or are you also suggesting it's difficult in most cases for neighbour B to prove it stands on his land?

surely the fence being his side of the internal partywall would be considered a strong indicator?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby mr sheen » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:10 pm

No Mac...I am suggesting that ownership of an object is pretty easy to prove....receipt is usual proof. On the other hand ownership of land is very difficult to prove and party wall is often not sufficient.

Disputes here often presuppose that there are 2 reasonable people willing to look at deeds and walls and come to an agreement...very few cases are like this so then one is faced with having to prove things to someone who will not listen and then this means taking a stance that a case is going to be decided in court which is very rare in most cases there is mediation to bring both sides to compromise.

So faced with saying the party wall proves that piece of land is mine against here is the receipt to prove I paid for the replacement of a fence that I had previously replaced without objection 9 years previously...IMO..the OP is on a loser...but hey if they want to throw money at legalese that is their privilege and good luck to them. However, there are some on here that introduce legalese and fuel disputes that are no-hopers in terms of achieving a desirable outcome as oppose to just becoming embroiled in dispute. Going round waving deeds at someone who has just forked out for a new fence is unlikely to get a desirable outcome for the deed-waver.
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby arborlad » Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:29 pm

suzukibiker68 wrote:My neighbour erected a fence, replacing my fencing several years ago without any permission. This is in exactly the same spot as the old fence on my boundary. This was not an issue until recently when I have placed security spikes on the fence due to being burgled, whereby he has demanded (swearing and shouting) I remove them as it is his fence as he paid for it. I told him this is not the case as he had no right to replace my fence for a higher one 9 years ago. He chose to erect a new fence on my land and the right of ownership and usage is mine. Am I correct? The main point is, he is against me screwing the items to the top of the fence but in my opinion it has been erected without my say so on my land and therefore I have a right to do this. Advice please?



The main point which you seem to be missing, is that it is a boundary feature which should define and secure the limits of the owners land, whether you can screw things to it is fairly insignificant.

If everything you've told us is correct, what you should have done 9 years ago is send a note to the neighbour thanking him for donating a fence to you and that you don't consider there to be any changes in land ownership - you still own the fence and the land it occupies. Doing nothing for 9 years wasn't an option.
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby Collaborate » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:28 pm

Heven't we all forgotten the saga of that thread from a few months back where the neighbour replaced the fence a few years ago, ownership of the fence uncertain, then tried to sue the poster for the cost when he found out it belonged to the poster after all? The neighbour lost that case and it remained the property of the poster.
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby Collaborate » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:09 pm

This is the thread. It would appear that doing nothing is an option after all.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19796
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby jonahinoz » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:05 am

Hi,

A little learning is a dangerous thing ...

I think there is something called ESSTOPEL that prevents you doing something that you should have done earlier. For instance, watching you neighbour build an extension on your land, and only when he has finished do you tell him to knock it down. Perhaps somebody here can give a better definition, in colloquial "Lay-speak".

Taken to an extreme, I understand that if something is attached to your property, it becomes your property. Same request for enlightenment. That seems to be bourne out by the "Please help with who has ownership?" discussion referred to in the previous mail, which suggests that your neighbour has gifted you a fence that you can nail things onto....

.... unless he erected it on HIS land, in which case you have gifted him some spikes.

The problem is, if this escalates, and it goes legal, the costs could run to tens of thousands of pounds. Can you afford to take that risk? Can your neighbour? If you have Legal Protection, ask your insurers for advice. It's probably too late now to take out a new policy to cover this particular matter, but with a neighbour like that, it might be worth adding legal protection to your house policy against future events ... it cost me an extra £15 a year.

Tell your neighbour you will remove your (his?) spikes and erect a row of 2m high poles next to the fence with a strand of razor wire along the top. (Then change your mind.)

John W
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby arborlad » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:22 am

Collaborate wrote: It would appear that doing nothing is an option after all.



Not quite sure what you mean by that, but if the OP wished to assert ownership of the fence and the land it occupies, then doing nothing for nine years is not an option.
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby Collaborate » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:28 am

arborlad wrote:
Collaborate wrote: It would appear that doing nothing is an option after all.



Not quite sure what you mean by that, but if the OP wished to assert ownership of the fence and the land it occupies, then doing nothing for nine years is not an option.


The thread I linked to above seems to suggest otherwise. In that, the OP did nothing but a judge agreed it was his fence, and that he didn't have to pay the neighbour for it.
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby arborlad » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:59 am

Collaborate wrote:
arborlad wrote:
Collaborate wrote: It would appear that doing nothing is an option after all.



Not quite sure what you mean by that, but if the OP wished to assert ownership of the fence and the land it occupies, then doing nothing for nine years is not an option.


The thread I linked to above seems to suggest otherwise. In that, the OP did nothing but a judge agreed it was his fence, and that he didn't have to pay the neighbour for it.



'........ and that he didn't have to pay the neighbour for it.' That certainly happened - the case was dismissed.


'............the OP did nothing but a judge agreed it was his fence,' That would have been a desirable and recommended outcome - did it happen?
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Re: Please help with who has ownership?

Postby mattloeb » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:11 pm

any update on this?
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