Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance documents

Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance documents

Postby Morph » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:02 pm

I have the classic neighbour dispute due to putting up a new fence. Living in a mid- terrace, I thought I was doing the right thing - erecting a new fence with minimal changes to replace an old one, putting in same place and line as previously, gave notice verbally etc. We have had no feedback for the 8 years we lived here nor during notice of any issues.

A week after the work is done I get a letter from the elderly neighbour saying we are encroaching on their land. I explain to the neighbour we simply put the fence along the same fence line - and we show pictures before and after. 

They state their deeds include the conveyance, from over 100 years ago, showing width of their garden as a definitive measurement; that they claim have lost 10inches (full width about 20 feet) and are using us replacing the fence as the reason for the complaint. We don't have the old conveyance paperwork as part of our deeds.

I say I thought the conveyance dimensions are not exact but indicative, and if our fence has been on the same line and replacing a fence that is at least 10 years old the boundary has probably changed. In fact one fence post we believe was the original boarder post (so would be good proof of where the boundary was). I also showed them that if we agreed their 10inch claim then the fence line would go through a tree and a wall which are long standing (decades old) so this doesn't make sense. The post against our property straddles the mid line - but this has always been the case for decades and is consistent with how other adjoining neighbours have their posts(for which we have corroborative evidence).

We have tried to talk to them but they just refer to their deeds.

Am I barking up the wrong tree on this ? Have they a reasonable claim?  Should we request they have a survey done to support their claim? Any advice would be gratefully received. Thanks
Morph
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:01 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby despair » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:18 pm

i suspect they have a bee in their bonnet and have got things wrong
if your post is dead on the centre line it cannot possibly be in wrong place plus as you say you were careful to replace in exact same place as previous
and theres tree etc that been there ages
i would try to ignore the subject but if challenged say you were ulta carefull to ensure you only replaced the fence in exactly same position as old one so they are wrong
despair
 
Posts: 16026
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:07 am

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:37 pm

Hi Morph,

if I was feeling impish I'd tell them they're right, but it's the fence on the other side which has encroached!

ultimately, how do you want to handle this?

do you want to investigate this together and then do the 'right' thing even if this is to move the fence?

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 5970
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby Morph » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:34 pm

Thanks for feedback so far. We've tried to talk but there are sticking to their guns. May be I haven't understood your comments but I think we did the right thing.
Morph
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby despair » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:14 pm

The elderly can get very pedantic
you know you have done no wrong so stick to your guns
trust you have legal expenses cover on mortgage or insurance or credit cards should this get nasty
despair
 
Posts: 16026
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:07 am

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby Eliza » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:05 pm

despair wrote:i suspect they have a bee in their bonnet and have got things wrong
if your post is dead on the centre line it cannot possibly be in wrong place plus as you say you were careful to replace in exact same place as previous
and theres tree etc that been there ages
i would try to ignore the subject but if challenged say you were ulta carefull to ensure you only replaced the fence in exactly same position as old one so they are wrong


I would think this is the best course of action.

You say they are elderly, so it's always a possibility that they are obsessing about this because of "having nothing to do and all day to do it in". Just keep repeating that the fence is in exactly the same place as the last one and the points re tree etc being there.

They will find something else to do after a while of you patiently repeating the same message however many times it's necessary before it sinks in.
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....
Eliza
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby Eliza » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:18 pm

Thinking further on this subject and there is a very good thread on this Forum by Conveyancer somewhere about this sort of situation you might like to look for.

The basic gist of this sort of situation is that people have only had our modern accurate type measuring tools pretty recently. They certainly wouldnt have had them 100 years ago. Hence they werent able to take measurements to the exact inch as we can these days. Add that ground is very rarely completely flat. Most ground has some sort of slopin on it somewhere and thus allowance has to be made for that sloping. I don't believe that was possible with the older-style measuring tools.

Somewhere on this old original conveyance too then there might have been physical features mentioned, as well as measurements.

I had very much the same situation with an elderly neighbour and it boiled down to inaccurate measuring originally/there is mention of specific boundary features that still exist (which make it plain exactly where the boundary lies) and the ground slopes in a variety of ways.

Basically my own elderly neighbour was clutching at imaginary straws to try and assert they owned a strip of my garden. It was very clear from those boundary features exactly where the boundary lies and I just had to keep on stating as many times as necessary that the boundary lies where it really lies. They got fed-up in the end and found something else to do with their time instead.
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....
Eliza
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby ukmicky » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:07 am

Ask the neighbour to show you his permanent ground markers. These days things have to be done properly with permanent reference points such as permanent ground markers that cant legally be interfered with.


Basically under the current law the only measurements on a plan which can be used to legally define the exact location of a boundary are those which have been recorded in accordance with section 60 of the land registration act 2002. As his old conveyance is 100 years old it wont be in accordance with section 60 of the land registration act 2002 and the measurements will mean nothing, legally.

If his boundaries were fixed, what they now call determined and were not not a general boundary , your plans will also make reference to measurements and reference points as will all his adjoining neighbours plans. . The register of title for all the adjoining properties will also make reference to the determined boundaries.

There is no need for an expensive survey.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
ukmicky
 
Posts: 4515
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:13 pm
Location: London

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby Morph » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:07 pm

Thanks v much for advice so far - all valuable. My issue is that we put the fence where it was, but the prior posts where historically (meaning maybe 50 years ago) down the middle of the mid point technically. So whilst the neighbour is saying move it (a matter of 1 or 2 inches which seems insubstantial), can I rely on the over 10 year rule ( with proof of long standing boundary features) to push back " legally"?
Morph
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby MacadamB53 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:20 pm

Hi Morph,

are you now advising that you acknowledge that your fence stands partially on his land?

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 5970
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby Morph » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:32 pm

Hi Mac - what I am saying is that I'm trying to understand the issue and remain open minded. We put the fence where it always has been which is where it's been for the last 10 years which we can substantiate. We've had no feedback for 8 years as to issues nor during the notice period.
Morph
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby Morph » Wed May 03, 2017 3:24 am

Update on our neighbour fence dispute as a follow on. We have unsuccessfully met a few times to discuss issue. They left it that they reply through a solicitor based on their deeds which we haven't received. So now when I am out of the house the neighbours are cynically trying to weaken the fence by pouring liquid over the panels and stabbing it with a screwdriver. I can only presume they are trying to damage the fence to escalate the dispute when it needs replacing. I can't talk with them productively. Is the best course to inform the local community police? Thank you for any guidance.
Morph
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby Collaborate » Wed May 03, 2017 7:17 am

Morph wrote:Update on our neighbour fence dispute as a follow on. We have unsuccessfully met a few times to discuss issue. They left it that they reply through a solicitor based on their deeds which we haven't received. So now when I am out of the house the neighbours are cynically trying to weaken the fence by pouring liquid over the panels and stabbing it with a screwdriver. I can only presume they are trying to damage the fence to escalate the dispute when it needs replacing. I can't talk with them productively. Is the best course to inform the local community police? Thank you for any guidance.


CCTV is your friend here. Get the evidence then go to the police.
Collaborate
 
Posts: 1096
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:17 am

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby jonahinoz » Wed May 03, 2017 9:33 am

Hi,

My neighbour in the Swansea Valley, living at the end of a long terrace, calculated that if everybody owned the plot widths that they appeared to own, his garden was the cemetery.

A colleague at DVLC, marked out 10 rows of desks onto the building plan. Unfortunately, he drew them to scale on the architects plan, without doing the maths ... in real life, there was only room for 9 rows of desks. I think the technical term is "Accumulated tolerances".

John W
jonahinoz
 
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:15 pm

Re: Classic dispute over boudary using old conveyance docume

Postby Morph » Wed May 03, 2017 10:09 am

Hi John

your analogy is unclear to me: are you saying based on what I've said I should be more tolerant; or are you saying what I've done is within tolerable limits (and that the neighbours shouldn't be potentially purposely damaging the disputed fence)? I don't think they should be damaging property regardless of the dispute.

Thanks
Morph
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:01 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
Next

Return to Fences

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 6 guests