Never had a fence, but now want one

Never had a fence, but now want one

Postby fattybacon » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:21 am

I've scoured as many pages of the fence forum as I could to get the feel for this and to see if this has arisen before but seemingly not.

When we bought our house 15 years ago there had been two sisters living side by side and so neither had need of a boundary fence or wall, and used the double gates and slanty path to access both of their doors.

As time has gone by new neighbours have come and gone and now the house has become a noisy HMO (they converted a small 3 bedroom house into a 5 bedroom house for students). Looking at the LR plan it's clear that the front boundary goes from the black drainpipe to the orange and black line I've added to the picture below:

Image

If we erect a fence, to the left of the drainpipe to the orange/black line, then the neighbours will have no entry to the front of the property. I want to write to the owner and give him plenty of notice so they can create a garden path and gate/hole for their access. Can anyone see any problems with this?

1) It's over 10 years old, are there any implications?

2) The owner lives at the above address according to the LR but clearly doesn't, a property agency seem to be responsible for it, so contacting him is problematical.

Any help/advice will be much appreciated. Thanks.
fattybacon
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:56 am

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Postby zaax » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:15 pm

You will need to look at the plans at the land registary.
I know nothing about the law.
zaax
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:43 pm
Location: Suffolk

Postby fattybacon » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:17 pm

zaax wrote:You will need to look at the plans at the land registary.
I've got the Land Registry plan on my desk and it shows the boundary as I've drawn on the photo in the first post.
fattybacon
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:56 am

Postby despair » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:36 pm

Your difficulty is that at some point an owner of your house has Aquiesed to the building of that wall

Hence the owners of the adjoining property are faced with the costs of demolition and rebuilding / installing a gate

If you are prepared to pay for the alteration then you probably will not encounter opposition
despair
 
Posts: 16043
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:07 am

Postby arborlad » Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:08 pm

Agreed.

Additionally, the adjoining property may have acquired a ROW over your property :?:
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7386
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Postby andrew54 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:13 pm

arborlad wrote:Agreed.

Additionally, the adjoining property may have acquired a ROW over your property :?:


I think a RoW will not exist as one householder gave permission for the other to use the access.
andrew54
 
Posts: 6992
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:25 pm
Location: north yorkshire

Postby fattybacon » Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:38 pm

andrew54 wrote:
arborlad wrote:Agreed.

Additionally, the adjoining property may have acquired a ROW over your property :?:


I think a RoW will not exist as one householder gave permission for the other to use the access.

I've never granted anyone right to use the access, verbally or written. It's just always been that way.

Urk, I'm worried now. I think the best thing will be to offer to pay for the gate to be created.
fattybacon
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:56 am

Postby arborlad » Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:42 pm

fattybacon wrote:
andrew54 wrote:
arborlad wrote:Agreed.

Additionally, the adjoining property may have acquired a ROW over your property :?:


I think a RoW will not exist as one householder gave permission for the other to use the access.

I've never granted anyone right to use the access, verbally or written. It's just always been that way.

Urk, I'm worried now. I think the best thing will be to offer to pay for the gate to be created.


I think to have any chance of success, you will have to fund the whole scheme, including any unforeseen incidentals.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7386
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Postby andrew54 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:43 pm

fattybacon wrote:
andrew54 wrote:
arborlad wrote:Agreed.

Additionally, the adjoining property may have acquired a ROW over your property :?:


I think a RoW will not exist as one householder gave permission for the other to use the access.

I've never granted anyone right to use the access, verbally or written. It's just always been that way.

Urk, I'm worried now. I think the best thing will be to offer to pay for the gate to be created.


I wasn't thinking of you giving permission, but the sisters giving each other permission years ago. After permission 'ceased' it would require 20 years of use to gain a right.
andrew54
 
Posts: 6992
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:25 pm
Location: north yorkshire

Postby fattybacon » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:41 pm

andrew54 wrote:I wasn't thinking of you giving permission, but the sisters giving each other permission years ago. After permission 'ceased' it would require 20 years of use to gain a right.

Thank you Andrew, that clarifies that point greatly. Many thanks.
fattybacon
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:56 am

Postby tryingnottobeafool » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:26 pm

it could help getting and showing your neighbours a copy of both title deeds

and tell them it affects the value of their house
tryingnottobeafool
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:51 am

Re:

Postby fattybacon2 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:43 pm

tryingnottobeafool wrote:it could help getting and showing your neighbours a copy of both title deeds

and tell them it affects the value of their house

Back after all these years with an update. (I've lost my email address of the original account hence new account).

So, I took the advice, got a copy of the neighbours land registry plan, spoke to the landlord and he got quite aggressive and said he's pursue his right through the courts. Feeling rather shell-shocked we withdrew.

Fast forward 6 years and now we are in the final stages of selling the house and conveyancing has recognised this as a problem.

I paid for the Title View (why didn't I do this all those years ago when I paid for the plan?) and found that there is a RoW:

"Notice entered in pursuance of rule 254 of the Land Registration Rules 1925 on 14 April 1993 that the registered proprietor claims that the land has the benefit of a right of way..".

It's not on our registry entry, and we'd had been living there 6 months by then, and we weren't notified at the time. Does that matter? The prospective buyers are spooked by this turn of events.

For information, the current owner, the landlord, has owned the property since 8th Jan 2008 and the RoW has been in use at least 20 years.
fattybacon2
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:08 pm

Re:

Postby fattybacon2 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:43 pm

tryingnottobeafool wrote:it could help getting and showing your neighbours a copy of both title deeds

and tell them it affects the value of their house

Back after all these years with an update. (I've lost my email address of the original account hence new account).

So, I took the advice, got a copy of the neighbours land registry plan, spoke to the landlord and he got quite aggressive and said he's pursue his right through the courts. Feeling rather shell-shocked we withdrew.

Fast forward 6 years and now we are in the final stages of selling the house and conveyancing has recognised this as a problem.

I paid for the Title View (why didn't I do this all those years ago when I paid for the plan?) and found that there is a RoW:

"Notice entered in pursuance of rule 254 of the Land Registration Rules 1925 on 14 April 1993 that the registered proprietor claims that the land has the benefit of a right of way..".

It's not on our registry entry, and we'd had been living there 6 months by then, and we weren't notified at the time. Does that matter? The prospective buyers are spooked by this turn of events.

For information, the current owner, the landlord, has owned the property since 8th Jan 2008 and the RoW has been in use at least 20 years.
fattybacon2
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:08 pm

Re: Never had a fence, but now want one

Postby jonahinoz » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:05 pm

"Notice entered in pursuance of rule 254 of the Land Registration Rules 1925 on 14 April 1993 that the registered proprietor claims that the land has the benefit of a right of way..".


Hi,

So more than 20 years has passed since the owner of your neighbours house CLAIMED there was a RoW, so presumably it has been used as a RoW since then. But why did he claim it? Was he selling a house that he inherited from one of the sisters? Was it a new RoW at that point in time, or was he regularising an existing RoW. Is there any history of documents to support that claim ... would LR have asked the owner of your house to comment?

It may be that as you challenged the RoW some years ago, the clock was reset at that point in time. Somebody more knowlegible than me may be able to comment.

You may also have to fight LR to make them admit they were wrong ... assuming that they were. My experience is that they will stonewall, until you go away. I hope I am wrong.

John W
jonahinoz
 
Posts: 1346
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:15 pm

Re: Never had a fence, but now want one

Postby fattybacon2 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:16 pm

jonahinoz wrote:"Notice entered in pursuance of rule 254 of the Land Registration Rules 1925 on 14 April 1993 that the registered proprietor claims that the land has the benefit of a right of way..".


Hi,

So more than 20 years has passed since the owner of your neighbours house CLAIMED there was a RoW, so presumably it has been used as a RoW since then. But why did he claim it? Was he selling a house that he inherited from one of the sisters? Was it a new RoW at that point in time, or was he regularising an existing RoW. Is there any history of documents to support that claim ... would LR have asked the owner of your house to comment?

It may be that as you challenged the RoW some years ago, the clock was reset at that point in time. Somebody more knowlegible than me may be able to comment.

You may also have to fight LR to make them admit they were wrong ... assuming that they were. My experience is that they will stonewall, until you go away. I hope I am wrong.

John W

Thanks for replying so quickly.

Yes, the RoW has been used since probably the 1950s. The owner in 1993 who registered the RoW on their property was a distant relative of the two sisters so she presumably realised that there was an issue and wanted to sort it out. Wish she's mentioned it, we got on well with her, so we never challenged it though since it was already a RoW then we'd have had no grounds for objection.
fattybacon2
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:08 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
Next

Return to Fences

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests