Returning rose bush clippings

Returning rose bush clippings

Postby livelylady2 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:42 pm

hello there..my query is this..i have neighbours that i havent spoken with in years..they then grew plants (a robin type bush, immediately followed by a rose bush followed by a connifer tree at the end of a small front garden boundary..i cut my side and return the cuttings by way of a short underarm throw, so that they are safely on her property ( avoiding dangers of small children with the thorns from the rose stems). the "hedge" as it is all entwined with each other is now in parts reaching the bedroom window in height..despite previous attempts at being nice and returning the cuttings in a black refuse sack, they promptly returned the whole lot to me..so now i have only the option of the underarm throw as i will not go onto the property. i have now been informed that this is "antagonistic" in manner and they want me to throw them nicely in a pile (which i try to do) i cannot put all their cuttings and mine into one bin and if i keep them, i have been told i would be "stealing"..any advice please?
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Re: Hedges and Boundaries

Postby despair » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:44 pm

You are required to OFFER back the cuttings which they can decline leaving you to dispose of them

Mind you when Councils start charging £80 a year to collect Green Waste i can see theres going to be a lot of throwing back irrespective of the hedge owners wishes
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Re: Hedges and Boundaries

Postby livelylady2 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:54 pm

despair wrote:You are required to OFFER back the cuttings which they can decline leaving you to dispose of them

Mind you when Councils start charging £80 a year to collect Green Waste i can see theres going to be a lot of throwing back irrespective of the hedge owners wishes

the problem is more..how can throwing them back in an underarm gentle throw be antagonistic? its not like i chuck them at windows or anything? and the councils only collect from green bins..so would mean MY purchasing another for their rubbish
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Re: Hedges and Boundaries

Postby Sudynim » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:17 am

livelylady2 wrote:
despair wrote:You are required to OFFER back the cuttings which they can decline leaving you to dispose of them

Mind you when Councils start charging £80 a year to collect Green Waste i can see theres going to be a lot of throwing back irrespective of the hedge owners wishes

the problem is more..how can throwing them back in an underarm gentle throw be antagonistic? its not like i chuck them at windows or anything? and the councils only collect from green bins..so would mean MY purchasing another for their rubbish


Despair has explained the law concisely - "You are required to OFFER back the cuttings which they can decline leaving you to dispose of them". There isn't anything else to say. You may feel it's unfair, and many here would agree, but it's a very long-established principle of E&W law and it won't be changing anytime soon.
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Re: Hedges and Boundaries

Postby Treeman » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:26 am

Sudynim wrote:
livelylady2 wrote:
despair wrote:You are required to OFFER back the cuttings which they can decline leaving you to dispose of them

Mind you when Councils start charging £80 a year to collect Green Waste i can see theres going to be a lot of throwing back irrespective of the hedge owners wishes

the problem is more..how can throwing them back in an underarm gentle throw be antagonistic? its not like i chuck them at windows or anything? and the councils only collect from green bins..so would mean MY purchasing another for their rubbish


Despair has explained the law concisely - "You are required to OFFER back the cuttings which they can decline leaving you to dispose of them". There isn't anything else to say. You may feel it's unfair, and many here would agree, but it's a very long-established principle of E&W law and it won't be changing anytime soon.


I am going to take issue with the word required.

This "required" is based in the fact that chucking them from whence they came could be called fly tipping, however the branches do belong to the tree owner and while they are entitled to the benefits of the tree they are also responsible for the burden.

I happen to be of the opinion that provided no damage is done the arising’s can be returned to the owner without problems.
Unless someone can show precedent that’s my standpoint.
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Re: Returning rose bush clippings

Postby hzatph » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:35 pm

IIRC the origins of this is that overhanging branches are a trespass and so can be cut back to the boundary to relieve that trespass. However, the wood they contain is of value (think the days in previous centuries without central heating) and still belongs to the tree owner and hence cannot be kept by the person cutting them off.

Have a look here for another case.

http://www.aie.org.uk/law/mills.htm

The principle is that ownership is retained by the tree owner - not that the tree owner needs to dispose of the cuttings.
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Re: Returning rose bush clippings

Postby Mattylad » Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:48 am

Try reading this post by one of the above posters.

Offering back the trimmings is the best option.
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Re: Returning rose bush clippings

Postby Conveyancer » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:43 am

To repeat what I said in another thread:

The idea that you can return trimmings and other arisings to your neighbour without his consent or indeed that you must do so, is patently wrong. It is yet another wrong-headed notion that has been spread across the web by barrack-room lawyers.

The law of trespass applies. Trespass is not just going on to someone's land without their consent. Directly interfering with someone's land is a trespass. Returning arisings in such a way as to cause damage or serious inconvenience will certainly be actionable. Surely no one can believe that the law allows you to scatter clippings across your neighbour's lawn or flowerbeds or throw branches over the fence. The law does not allow you to leave neatly bagged clippings on your neighbour's front door step either, though the court would I am sure frown on anyone who sued for a single instance.

Is it theft if you dispose of arisings without consent? Up and down the country thousands trim their neighbours' hedges and dispose of the cuttings with the rest of their garden waste. They do not think to ask the neighbours' consent to do so. Does anyone seriously think that the police, let alone the CPS, would take an interest? Depending on the tree, I suppose large branches may have some value as timber or firewood, but again I suspect none of the powers-that-be would be interested. Intent is a necessary ingredient of most crimes. I suspect any court would hold that there could be no intent when on any reasonable, if not strictly legal, view arisings are not generally thought of as belonging to anyone any more than leaves that fall off in autumn. Fruit laden branches should be regarded differently.

It is unwise to rely on local authority sites for correct statements of the law - the fact that clearly contradictory statements are made on different sites confirms it.
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Re: Returning rose bush clippings

Postby despair » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:52 am

thank you Conveyancer

If only Treeman would accept this sensible attitude
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Re: Returning rose bush clippings

Postby Treeman » Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:21 am

despair wrote:thank you Conveyancer

If only Treeman would accept this sensible attitude


You just can’t resist poking can you, Anyone would think you were trying to keep an argument going? Go on then, I will indulge you while I wait for my breakfast.

What conveyancer says is largely in line with my own beliefs and experience. The only real issue is a conflict of law, cutting back overhang is a lawful action (self-abatement of nuisance). The arising’s belong to the tree owner. Where we differ is the returning the arising’s, as conveyancer has rightly stated, (as long as you exercise due care) the chances of anyone bringing an action are remote in the extreme and a conviction? Well I would take my chances with the defence of avoiding a charge of theft.

While the law holds you generally can’t recover costs for non-actionable self-abatement there is no precedent that I know of that would prevent a successful action for the recovery of costs involved in disposing of any arising’s, when faced with an action for trespass a defendant could easily offer a counter suit to recover the costs of disposing of arising’s. It is grossly unfair to expect a neighbour to bear the financial burden of your vegetation. I have advised clients of this and on numerous occasions I have provided invoices with the cost of disposal separated and I know of many clients who have been successful in extracting those costs from the tree owner although unfortunately the threat of action has been enough to get action so regretably no precedent.

Anyhooo, to get this mater back to the point, this issue I raised was your constant use of the word MUST, there is no MUST but under certain circumstances there may be a should. This is not Lycra, ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL.
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