Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby the_one_loft » Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:35 pm

My first time to post here so apologies if this has been answered before.

I am planning to build a loft dormer extension. The house faces a private road - within a gated community (fob operated barricades to enter the road). There are signs posted all around that this is private property and people need permission to enter. I wrote to the council to asking enquire the status of the road and was informed that the road is a private road on private land.

The road serves a row of 27 houses. My question is - Would this road be considered a highway for the purpose of PDR - I want to build a front dormer assuming that the road is not a highway. I don't want to apply for the Certificate of Lawfulness (if I can avoid) since it would take me into autumn before the construction project could be started...

Many thanks for your thoughts, feedback and the criticism!
the_one_loft
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:48 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby pilman » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:18 pm

“private way” means a highway not maintainable at the public expense and any other way
other than a highway;
The latest Permitted Development Order published in April 2015 included this quote in the Interpretation section.

Even though the word "highway" is used twice in that definition, which is confusing, it is settled law that a highway is a road that is used as of right by members of the public, which is why some private roads can be highways.

What you are describing cannot be a highway because use is restricted to a certain class of people.
(c) any part of the dwellinghouse would, as a result of the works, extend beyond the plane of
any existing roof slope which forms the principal elevation of the dwellinghouse and fronts a highway
A reasonable person reading the section in Schedule 2, Part 1 Class B (c) of the GPDO, as amended, would conclude that your intended development would comply with PD rights, because the road is a private road, which is not maintained at the public expense so is not a highway which is caught by that clause. It is in fact a "private way" as clarified by the Definition used in the GPDO 2nd section headed "Interpretation".
pilman
 
Posts: 2841
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:08 pm

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:49 pm

Hi pilman,

as correct as you are (as is so often the case ;) ) I imagine the LPA might not be as wise and the OP has a rocky ride ahead of him...

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6059
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby the_one_loft » Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:04 pm

[quote="pilman"][quote]“private way” means a highway...quote]

Hi Mike, Pilman, Many thanks for your quick replies.
I can imagine that it can be a rocky ride, copying the email correspondence with council below, please see if this changes the view;
Thanks for your help again...

----
From: me to council
To: General Enquiries
Subject: Road enquiry

Hi,

I am a resident of Virginia Quay in Tower Hamlets and I had a query relating to a road in our neighbourhood.
I wanted to know the status of "Jamestown Way", i.e. whether it is a public road or a private road and has it been adopted.
Thanks in advance for your time to reply my query.

Regards,
-----
Their answer:
From: Michael Woolard [mailto:Michael.Woolard@towerhamlets]
Subject: RE: Road enquiry
Dear ... ,

I can confirm that Jamestown Way is Not Maintained by LBTH. The nearest maintained public highway is Blackwall Way.

Kind regards,
Michael Woollard
Support Services Officer | Public Realm, Cultural Services & Resources | Town Hall | 6th Floor | Mulberry Place
Tel: 020 7364 3348

----
My reply:

To: Michael Woolard
Subject: RE: Road enquiry

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your swift response, so is it a private road?
What about the footpath on Jamestown way, is it a public footpath?

Regards,
----
Their response:
Hi ,

That is correct, this is not public highway and is therefore private land. This includes any internal accessways/paths.

Kind regards,

Michael Woollard
Support Services Officer | Public Realm, Cultural Services & Resources | Town Hall | 6th Floor | Mulberry Place
Tel: 020 7364 3348
the_one_loft
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:48 pm

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby pilman » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:50 pm

Now that you have confirmation that the road is not a highway it could not be any clearer that your proposed development will be fully within the scope of the GPDO, as long as the height limits and volume also comply with the requirements set out in Part 1 Class B.
pilman
 
Posts: 2841
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:08 pm

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby the_one_loft » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:52 pm

Thanks again... My only remaining concerns are as follows:
1) council may do about turn and say that the answer was not provided with planning in mind..
2) that the answer talks about "public highway" and that the council may say while it is not a public highway but a highway for GPDO...
the_one_loft
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:48 pm

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby pilman » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:55 pm

Hi ,

That is correct, this is not public highway and is therefore private land. This includes any internal accessways/paths.

Kind regards,

Michael Woollard
Support Services Officer | Public Realm, Cultural Services & Resources | Town Hall | 6th Floor | Mulberry Place
Tel: 020 7364 3348
2) that the answer talks about "public highway" and that the council may say while it is not a public highway but a highway for GPDO...
Your comment confuses what is a "highway" under English law.
It is a road over which the public have the right to pass and repass.
The way you have described the gated access to the road serving your development and the notices proclaiming it to be a private road cannot meet that definition.
Some privately owned roads can be highways, because public rights have been established over them even though the duty of maintenance remains in the private owner, that was the first part of the definition taken from the GPDO.

This is not the situation in this instance, which is why the last e-mail from the council used the words "private land" and did not even use the words "private road". Ther is nothing in the GPDO that relates to property that does not front a highway.

The planning department may "do an about turn" but that would be a completely groundless claim if later on they claim your property fronts a highway, when you have written confirmation that the nearest highway is Blackwall Way, which is not in front of your property.

If you really are that worried after having those two e-mails sent to you then you will need to apply for an LDC for proposed development and wait to hear back that this will be granted.

That is what people do who cannot accept something is 99.9% correct, so need the final .1% confirmed for them.

Is that you?
pilman
 
Posts: 2841
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:08 pm

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby the_one_loft » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:22 pm

Thanks sir (or m'am!)
That is clear as crystal. I will go ahead and have loft converted, you have cleared my doubts..
the_one_loft
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:48 pm

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby pilman » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:58 am

Thanks sir (or m'am!) That is clear as crystal
I don't know how you guessed my sister's name was Crystal, but she uses the screen name "pilwoman"
I use the screen name pilman to define my masculinity, although sometimes I have been told to stop moaning like an old woman.

Glad to have been of help, old boy, or should that be old girl?
Good luck with your conversion.
pilman
 
Posts: 2841
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:08 pm

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby the_one_loft » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:04 pm

pilman wrote:
Thanks sir (or m'am!) That is clear as crystal
I don't know how you guessed my sister's name was Crystal, but she uses the screen name "pilwoman"
I use the screen name pilman to define my masculinity, although sometimes I have been told to stop moaning like an old woman.

Glad to have been of help, old boy, or should that be old girl?
Good luck with your conversion.


Old girl it is!
I am sorry if I caused any offence. I wasn't sure if Pilman is your nick-name or last name.
the_one_loft
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:48 pm

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby pilman » Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:23 pm

Don't worry, I didn't take offence, that was me being a bit silly before going to bed on a Friday evening.

I have been told I have a wierd sense of humour and I was just trying to inject a sense of nonsense now that you seem more certain of the correct interpretation of the words used in the GPDO.

To show how one can decide what the words used in GPDO can mean you need to look at the Planning Jungle web-site. Every word in the GPDO has to be taken on its face value however stupid the end result turns out to be.
http://planningjungle.com/free-documents/
Click on the link "Part 1 of the GPDO - The 10 Worst Permitted Development Loopholes " to see what can happen when the words are correctly interpreted.
pilman
 
Posts: 2841
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:08 pm

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby the_one_loft » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:21 pm

pilman wrote:Don't worry, I didn't take offence, that was me being a bit silly before going to bed on a Friday evening.

I have been told I have a wierd sense of humour and I was just trying to inject a sense of nonsense now that you seem more certain of the correct interpretation of the words used in the GPDO.

To show how one can decide what the words used in GPDO can mean you need to look at the Planning Jungle web-site. Every word in the GPDO has to be taken on its face value however stupid the end result turns out to be.
http://planningjungle.com/free-documents/
Click on the link "Part 1 of the GPDO - The 10 Worst Permitted Development Loopholes " to see what can happen when the words are correctly interpreted.


So I started the work, someone promptly complained - an enforcement officer popped around to take a look.
The council has done an about turn - they previous reply was sent in error. Their stand is that when the development was approved in 1997, public access to the estate was secured under a Secton 106 order.

What should I do now? Is there a case to finish work under their previous response?
thanks for your help..
the_one_loft
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:48 pm

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby ukmicky » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:35 am

the_one_loft wrote:
pilman wrote:Don't worry, I didn't take offence, that was me being a bit silly before going to bed on a Friday evening.

I have been told I have a wierd sense of humour and I was just trying to inject a sense of nonsense now that you seem more certain of the correct interpretation of the words used in the GPDO.

To show how one can decide what the words used in GPDO can mean you need to look at the Planning Jungle web-site. Every word in the GPDO has to be taken on its face value however stupid the end result turns out to be.
http://planningjungle.com/free-documents/
Click on the link "Part 1 of the GPDO - The 10 Worst Permitted Development Loopholes " to see what can happen when the words are correctly interpreted.


So I started the work, someone promptly complained - an enforcement officer popped around to take a look.
The council has done an about turn - they previous reply was sent in error. Their stand is that when the development was approved in 1997, public access to the estate was secured under a Secton 106 order.

What should I do now? Is there a case to finish work under their previous response?
thanks for your help..


Can explain a bit more

What is the u turn the council have done.

The 106 order ,what was the planning obligation entered into by the developer. Are you saying under the planning obligation a public highway was created.

Have you gone onto the councils website and looked for the original planning application and 106 order to see what it says.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
ukmicky
 
Posts: 4556
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:13 pm
Location: London

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby the_one_loft » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:44 am

ukmicky wrote:
Can explain a bit more

What is the u turn the council have done.

The 106 order ,what was the planning obligation entered into by the developer. Are you saying under the planning obligation a public highway was created.

Have you gone onto the councils website and looked for the original planning application and 106 order to see what it says.


The council sent me in writing that the road is private land - please see correspondence with the council earlier in the thread. now they have made a U turn based on someone's complaint and are saying that it is a public road as created under section 106. The planning application they refer to is from 1996 and is not available on internet unfortunately...

Key question is - can council change its stand once someone completes the work based on their guidance?
the_one_loft
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:48 pm

Re: Highway for the purpose of Permitted development Right

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:58 am

Hi the_one_loft,

The planning application they refer to is from 1996 and is not available on internet unfortunately...

that doesn't mean you can't get a copy - ask the council for a hard copy the old-fashioned way.

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6059
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
Next

Return to Rights of Way

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 7 guests