ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby MacadamB53 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:54 pm

Hi poozyf,

you mention there was once a single property and that the owner sold off two parts.

you then mention that you own leasehold title to one of these.

can you please clarify which properties you copied the excerpts from in your original posting...

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby poozyf » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:45 pm

mr sheen wrote:Not all easements are shown in deeds.
A roadway open at both ends is likely to be subject to prescriptive easements which will not be on the deeds.

When land is divided all benefits to the original title are transferred to every title unless specifically withheld.

If you block a legitimate right of way, the beneficiaries can remove the obstruction and since they remove no parking signs they will no doubt remove gates.

If the HA obstructs the right of way, they will probably be sued and it will cost them.....hence I cannot imagine a HA physically obstructing a roadway without taking legal advice.it is particularly problematic for HA since a dispute will put all their property at that address under the category of 'in dispute'; they have corporate social responsibilities in relation to their actions in order to benefit from funding and have a responsibility to use funds appropriately. Before embarking upon a legal dispute they probably have a responsibility to take legal advice.


Thanks for this, and to be clear what does excluding section 62 do then? :
(26.04.2006) The Transfer dated 16 December 2005 referred to in the
Charges Register contains a provision as to light or air and a
provision excluding the operation of Section 62 of the Law of Property act 1925 as therein mentioned.
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby poozyf » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:39 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi poozyf,

you mention there was once a single property and that the owner sold off two parts.

you then mention that you own leasehold title to one of these.

can you please clarify which properties you copied the excerpts from in your original posting...

Kind regards, Mac


Hi MacadamB53,

Their title states:

(26.04.2006) The land has the benefit of the rights reserved by a
Transfer of the land edged and numbered A********** in green on the title
plan dated 16 December 2005 made between (1) ********* (2)
**********.
^this is the only part in their title in relation to our (i mean the HA's freehold title here) title

Our Title (freehold title):

(26.04.2006) The land is subject to the rights reserved by a Transfer
of the land in this title dated 16 December 2005 made between (1) ******* and (2) *********.

(26.04.2006) The Transfer dated 16 December 2005 referred to in the
Charges Register contains a provision as to light or air and a
provision excluding the operation of Section 62 of the Law of Property
Act 1925 as therein mentioned.
poozyf
 
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby MacadamB53 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:00 pm

Hi poozyf,

so you own the freehold? or is that the HA? or ANother?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby poozyf » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:09 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi poozyf,

so you own the freehold? or is that the HA? or ANother?

Kind regards, Mac


Hi Mac,

the HA owns the freehold, but as I said above the HA said they will block access if they legally can, but this is dragging on for months and months so us leaseholders are trying to do the work for them to find out (as it is us being affected daily!).
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby jdfi » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:48 pm

If you show this to the HA, my suggestions for them are:

-to put up signs at both entry points to their land) perhaps warning of sanctions for both unauthorised parking and driving through.

-a letter to the adjacent property telling them that they and their tenants / customers cannot drive over HA land.

(depending on response to the above)
-installation of barriers perhaps with a smartcard.
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby poozyf » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:52 pm

jdfi wrote:If you show this to the HA, my suggestions for them are:

-to put up signs at both entry points to their land) perhaps warning of sanctions for both unauthorised parking and driving through.

-a letter to the adjacent property telling them that they and their tenants / customers cannot drive over HA land.

(depending on response to the above)
-installation of barriers perhaps with a smartcard.


Hi jdfi,

thanks for this,

They have done both in the past on numerous occasions and have painted this section of 'road' with double yellow lines and even employed a private firm to issue parking charges, but the owners of other property have continuously ripped down the signs for no parking.

So this is the final more drastic solution, hence the need to know if it is legal or not to erect barriers with a smart card for example.
Do you then think, based on the information I have given that this would be legal? in that the other property does not have a ROW ?

thanks
poozyf
 
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:46 pm

Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby ukmicky » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:03 am

poozyf wrote:
mr sheen wrote:Not all easements are shown in deeds.
A roadway open at both ends is likely to be subject to prescriptive easements which will not be on the deeds.

When land is divided all benefits to the original title are transferred to every title unless specifically withheld.

If you block a legitimate right of way, the beneficiaries can remove the obstruction and since they remove no parking signs they will no doubt remove gates.

If the HA obstructs the right of way, they will probably be sued and it will cost them.....hence I cannot imagine a HA physically obstructing a roadway without taking legal advice.it is particularly problematic for HA since a dispute will put all their property at that address under the category of 'in dispute'; they have corporate social responsibilities in relation to their actions in order to benefit from funding and have a responsibility to use funds appropriately. Before embarking upon a legal dispute they probably have a responsibility to take legal advice.


Thanks for this, and to be clear what does excluding section 62 do then? :
(26.04.2006) The Transfer dated 16 December 2005 referred to in the
Charges Register contains a provision as to light or air and a
provision excluding the operation of Section 62 of the Law of Property act 1925 as therein mentioned.


Section 62 LPA

A conveyance of land shall be deemed to include and shall by virtue of this Act operate to convey, with the land, all buildings, erections, fixtures, commons, hedges, ditches, fences, ways, waters, water-courses, liberties, privileges, easements, rights, and advantages whatsoever, appertaining or reputed to appertain to the land, or any part thereof, or, at the time of conveyance, demised, occupied, or enjoyed with, or reputed or known as part or parcel of or appurtenant to the land or any part thereof.




Basically on transfer section 62 of the law and property act turns rights, licenses and privileges into easements if land that was in common ownership is partitioned and sold to the occupiers who were renting or leasing prior to the conveyance.

By excluding Section 62 of the LPA no existing easements rights or privileges were transferred unless specifically written into the conveyance deed in December 2005 . So you need to see a copy of the deed dated December 2005
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby poozyf » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:13 pm

ukmicky wrote:
poozyf wrote:
mr sheen wrote:Not all easements are shown in deeds.
A roadway open at both ends is likely to be subject to prescriptive easements which will not be on the deeds.

When land is divided all benefits to the original title are transferred to every title unless specifically withheld.

If you block a legitimate right of way, the beneficiaries can remove the obstruction and since they remove no parking signs they will no doubt remove gates.

If the HA obstructs the right of way, they will probably be sued and it will cost them.....hence I cannot imagine a HA physically obstructing a roadway without taking legal advice.it is particularly problematic for HA since a dispute will put all their property at that address under the category of 'in dispute'; they have corporate social responsibilities in relation to their actions in order to benefit from funding and have a responsibility to use funds appropriately. Before embarking upon a legal dispute they probably have a responsibility to take legal advice.


Thanks for this, and to be clear what does excluding section 62 do then? :
(26.04.2006) The Transfer dated 16 December 2005 referred to in the
Charges Register contains a provision as to light or air and a
provision excluding the operation of Section 62 of the Law of Property act 1925 as therein mentioned.


Section 62 LPA

A conveyance of land shall be deemed to include and shall by virtue of this Act operate to convey, with the land, all buildings, erections, fixtures, commons, hedges, ditches, fences, ways, waters, water-courses, liberties, privileges, easements, rights, and advantages whatsoever, appertaining or reputed to appertain to the land, or any part thereof, or, at the time of conveyance, demised, occupied, or enjoyed with, or reputed or known as part or parcel of or appurtenant to the land or any part thereof.




Basically on transfer section 62 of the law and property act turns rights, licenses and privileges into easements if land that was in common ownership is partitioned and sold to the occupiers who were renting or leasing prior to the conveyance.

By excluding Section 62 of the LPA no existing easements rights or privileges were transferred unless specifically written into the conveyance deed in December 2005 . So you need to see a copy of the deed dated December 2005



Thank you, I will check this.
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby jdfi » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:18 pm

poozyf wrote:
jdfi wrote:If you show this to the HA, my suggestions for them are:

-to put up signs at both entry points to their land) perhaps warning of sanctions for both unauthorised parking and driving through.

-a letter to the adjacent property telling them that they and their tenants / customers cannot drive over HA land.

(depending on response to the above)
-installation of barriers perhaps with a smartcard.


Hi jdfi,

thanks for this,

They have done both in the past on numerous occasions and have painted this section of 'road' with double yellow lines and even employed a private firm to issue parking charges, but the owners of other property have continuously ripped down the signs for no parking.

So this is the final more drastic solution, hence the need to know if it is legal or not to erect barriers with a smart card for example.
Do you then think, based on the information I have given that this would be legal? in that the other property does not have a ROW ?

thanks


Barriers or gates on the HAs land would be legal (assuming planning not required, no conservation area, etc)

PROVIDED that access is given to everyone who is entitled, which may include property further south if they can show 20 years use.
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:39 pm

jdfi wrote:
poozyf wrote:
jdfi wrote:If you show this to the HA, my suggestions for them are:

-to put up signs at both entry points to their land) perhaps warning of sanctions for both unauthorised parking and driving through.

-a letter to the adjacent property telling them that they and their tenants / customers cannot drive over HA land.

(depending on response to the above)
-installation of barriers perhaps with a smartcard.


Hi jdfi,

thanks for this,

They have done both in the past on numerous occasions and have painted this section of 'road' with double yellow lines and even employed a private firm to issue parking charges, but the owners of other property have continuously ripped down the signs for no parking.

So this is the final more drastic solution, hence the need to know if it is legal or not to erect barriers with a smart card for example.
Do you then think, based on the information I have given that this would be legal? in that the other property does not have a ROW ?

thanks


Barriers or gates on the HAs land would be legal (assuming planning not required, no conservation area, etc)

PROVIDED that access is given to everyone who is entitled, which may include property further south if they can show 20 years use.
it would not be legal if a public right of way subsists over the land.
if one hasn't been recorded a legitimate claim to have one added may well be raised in response to the installation of the gate...
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby jdfi » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:49 am

MacadamB53 wrote:it would not be legal if a public right of way subsists over the land.
if one hasn't been recorded a legitimate claim to have one added may well be raised in response to the installation of the gate...


No ROW shown on the Ealing definitive map.

Barriers could be positioned to allow pedestrian access but not vehicular?
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:16 am

jdfi wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:it would not be legal if a public right of way subsists over the land.
if one hasn't been recorded a legitimate claim to have one added may well be raised in response to the installation of the gate...


No ROW shown on the Ealing definitive map.

Barriers could be positioned to allow pedestrian access but not vehicular?
LAs have a habit of not adding roads to their Definitive Maps and Statements - because they only have to record footpaths, bridleways, BOATs and RUPPs/restricted byways.
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby poozyf » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:00 pm

jdfi wrote:
poozyf wrote:
jdfi wrote:If you show this to the HA, my suggestions for them are:

-to put up signs at both entry points to their land) perhaps warning of sanctions for both unauthorised parking and driving through.

-a letter to the adjacent property telling them that they and their tenants / customers cannot drive over HA land.

(depending on response to the above)
-installation of barriers perhaps with a smartcard.


Hi jdfi,

thanks for this,

They have done both in the past on numerous occasions and have painted this section of 'road' with double yellow lines and even employed a private firm to issue parking charges, but the owners of other property have continuously ripped down the signs for no parking.

So this is the final more drastic solution, hence the need to know if it is legal or not to erect barriers with a smart card for example.
Do you then think, based on the information I have given that this would be legal? in that the other property does not have a ROW ?

thanks


Barriers or gates on the HAs land would be legal (assuming planning not required, no conservation area, etc)

PROVIDED that access is given to everyone who is entitled, which may include property further south if they can show 20 years use.


They definitely do not have 20 years of use, no more than 8, if that.

MacadamB53 wrote:
jdfi wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:it would not be legal if a public right of way subsists over the land.
if one hasn't been recorded a legitimate claim to have one added may well be raised in response to the installation of the gate...


No ROW shown on the Ealing definitive map.

Barriers could be positioned to allow pedestrian access but not vehicular?
LAs have a habit of not adding roads to their Definitive Maps and Statements - because they only have to record footpaths, bridleways, BOATs and RUPPs/restricted byways.


So...if there is not a public ROW over the land, then no problem installing gates?
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Re: ROW/Easement allowed or not? Please help!

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:44 pm

Hi poozyf,

if there is not a public ROW over the land, then no problem installing gates?

no problem installing them, but this in itself may well trigger a complaint from members of the public to the local HA about the obstruction of what was assumed to be a PROW, which will then trigger an investigation as to whether an as-yet-unrecorded PROW subsists and needs adding to the Definitive Map & Statement.
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