Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby Collaborate » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:05 pm

Unlikely the value of the wood would be over the £10,000 small claims procedure threshold, so costs cannot be claimed by either party in any event. No need to fear an adverse costs order (save for minor court fees) unless the claim is for over £10,000.
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby stressederic » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:41 pm

Collaborate wrote:Unlikely the value of the wood would be over the £10,000 small claims procedure threshold, so costs cannot be claimed by either party in any event. No need to fear an adverse costs order (save for minor court fees) unless the claim is for over £10,000.


Can the legal costs be added to the claim to take it over the 10k mark?...so for example the £300 claim for the wood, and lets say for arguments sake the sol charged him 11k ( i know this wont be the case but just for an example)?
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby mr sheen » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:42 pm

He has to prove the value of the wood and ownership so an invoice would be ideal....what are the chances?
This whole matter would be frowned upon by court so unlikely any costs will be awarded and presenting a bill for £10.7k of costs for a few bucks of wood that was so unimportant it was left in different places will be quite rightly considered absolutely ridiculous....courts work on what is reasonable not what is ridiculous.

Don't understand why you are stressing over this bit of nonesense distraction. Reply to solicitor ask for documentary proof of contract and ownership of he wood/invoice with original cost and forget the matter until you get the next letter when you can concoct another reply.

This is becoming a big distraction from the ROW issue - try to keep it in perspective at the end of the day £300 is just 1 consultation/letter when instructing a solicitor
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby Collaborate » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:43 pm

stressederic wrote:
Collaborate wrote:Unlikely the value of the wood would be over the £10,000 small claims procedure threshold, so costs cannot be claimed by either party in any event. No need to fear an adverse costs order (save for minor court fees) unless the claim is for over £10,000.


Can the legal costs be added to the claim to take it over the 10k mark?...so for example the £300 claim for the wood, and lets say for arguments sake the sol charged him 11k ( i know this wont be the case but just for an example)?


No.
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby stressederic » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:22 pm

mr sheen wrote:He has to prove the value of the wood and ownership so an invoice would be ideal....what are the chances?
This whole matter would be frowned upon by court so unlikely any costs will be awarded and presenting a bill for £10.7k of costs for a few bucks of wood that was so unimportant it was left in different places will be quite rightly considered absolutely ridiculous....courts work on what is reasonable not what is ridiculous.

Don't understand why you are stressing over this bit of nonesense distraction. Reply to solicitor ask for documentary proof of contract and ownership of he wood/invoice with original cost and forget the matter until you get the next letter when you can concoct another reply.

This is becoming a big distraction from the ROW issue - try to keep it in perspective at the end of the day £300 is just 1 consultation/letter when instructing a solicitor


Im just aware of how my neighbour behaves and want to ensure i dot all the i's and cross all the ts before replying...im expecting an aggressive response to my letter.

The ROW issue is in the hands of my solicitors at the moment.

and id like to take this chance to thank you all for helping me with all these matters - it does help :)
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby stressederic » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:52 pm

Hi Guys,

Latest update:

My neighbours solicitor has sent me a letter with a new claim and that is tresspass by camera and states the camera overhangs our clients ' airspace.

I have a CCTV camera attached to the side of my house (approx 6M-7M high towards the top of the house gable end above gutter height). The land below, to the side of my house where the camera is attached is owned by my neighbour. Its a dome camera and probably sticks out 4 inches. The ground below is my parking area (as per way of easement),although the land owned by neighour.

My neighbour is claiming i am tresspasing his airspace by way of said camera and to remove camera within 14 days.

Questions:
To what height is tresspass by airspace?
Is there an allowance/measurement for anything sticking out from a house wall? The tiles on the roof must overhang by a couple of inches!

And to me this would seem a very unreasonable claim to remove said camera, given its attached to my house, causing no physical restriction, or no significant interference and the cctv camera is there for legitimate security reasons ie monitoring my car and any comings and goings.

So far i have come across: The right to airspace above land is restricted to such a height as is reasonably necessary for the ordinary use and enjoyment of his land and the structure upon it:

Thanks.
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby Collaborate » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:04 am

stressederic wrote:Questions:
To what height is tresspass by airspace?
Is there an allowance/measurement for anything sticking out from a house wall? The tiles on the roof must overhang by a couple of inches!

And to me this would seem a very unreasonable claim to remove said camera, given its attached to my house, causing no physical restriction, or no significant interference and the cctv camera is there for legitimate security reasons ie monitoring my car and any comings and goings.

Thanks.


I would say your camera is trespassing. The rule about "such a height as is reasonably necessary for the ordinary use and enjoyment of his land and the structure upon it" is so that aeroplanes can fly without trespassing all the time.

Your roof has been there long enough that he can't do anything about it, and the houses were probably built by the same builder so that's that. When did you instal the camera? Surely you can find somewhere else to instal it?
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby stressederic » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:29 am

It was installed a few months ago in response to my neigbours Restraining Order for harassment and his previous behaviour/vandalism/attempted criminal damage to my car. Of which i have old cctv footage of from a cctv cam which was inside my house looking out the window (which was no use in the dark).

Also, in reference to "such a height as is reasonably necessary for the ordinary use and enjoyment of his land and the structure upon it"...what ordinary use and enjoyment can my neighbour reasonably claim for 7M high , 4inches from my house wall...especially given my roof tiles will over hang approx 2inches of the said 4 inches of the camera??...not to mention the window lintels (its an old house).

The camera also picks up the 1.2 metre alleyway which starts 3M in,alongside the wall where the camera is.

So to be clear, the camera monitors my car parking area and also the entrance to the alleyway. Said alley way provides access to my rear garden (again by way of easement ie i do no own alleyway).

I cannot place the camera anywhere else in order for it to pickup the alley way and all of the car parking area which are directly below the wall
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby Collaborate » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:26 am

stressederic wrote:It was installed a few months ago in response to my neigbours Restraining Order for harassment and his previous behaviour/vandalism/attempted criminal damage to my car. Of which i have old cctv footage of from a cctv cam which was inside my house looking out the window (which was no use in the dark).

Also, in reference to "such a height as is reasonably necessary for the ordinary use and enjoyment of his land and the structure upon it"...what ordinary use and enjoyment can my neighbour reasonably claim for 7M high , 4inches from my house wall...especially given my roof tiles will over hang approx 2inches of the said 4 inches of the camera??...not to mention the window lintels (its an old house).

The camera also picks up the 1.2 metre alleyway which starts 3M in,alongside the wall where the camera is.

So to be clear, the camera monitors my car parking area and also the entrance to the alleyway. Said alley way provides access to my rear garden (again by way of easement ie i do no own alleyway).

I cannot place the camera anywhere else in order for it to pickup the alley way and all of the car parking area which are directly below the wall


You have built even higher than that. Is that not a reasonable height for your neighbour to want to use as well? What kid of structure do you think you'd be able to get away with? A trespass is a trespass. Your camera isn't attached to an aeroplane.
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:02 am

Hi stressederic,

when a landowner got annoyed with aircraft flying over his land he took it to court with the argument that he owned to the edge of the atmosphere for his little patch.

the court agreed but added the caveat that if a trespass occurs beyond the airspace a landowner would ordinarily use it wasn't a trespass that warranted compensation.

there have since been cases where landowners have taken developers/neighbours to court for having eg cranes oversail - and the courts have awarded eg injunctions.

so there you have it - your camera is certainly lower than a crane...

kind regards, Mac
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby stressederic » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:23 am

My front guttering extends out beyond the side of the house by approx. 6 inches and thus overhangs my neighbours property. So the guttering overhangs further than my camera.
They havent brought this up in their letter.

It would seem he doesnt want the camera there for his own benefit ie to create a blind spot where my parking area and alley way are located and as I said previously its there to monitor this area given previous behaviour of my neighbour.

So, im quite happy to put all of this evidence in front of a judge should they wish to take it that far. The only reason my neighbour is doing this is because he is a control freak and wants to make my life hell...and tbh ive really had enough now. Maybe it is time to put these matters in front of a judge once and for all - win or lose.
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby stressederic » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:24 am

Collaborate wrote:
stressederic wrote:It was installed a few months ago in response to my neigbours Restraining Order for harassment and his previous behaviour/vandalism/attempted criminal damage to my car. Of which i have old cctv footage of from a cctv cam which was inside my house looking out the window (which was no use in the dark).

Also, in reference to "such a height as is reasonably necessary for the ordinary use and enjoyment of his land and the structure upon it"...what ordinary use and enjoyment can my neighbour reasonably claim for 7M high , 4inches from my house wall...especially given my roof tiles will over hang approx 2inches of the said 4 inches of the camera??...not to mention the window lintels (its an old house).

The camera also picks up the 1.2 metre alleyway which starts 3M in,alongside the wall where the camera is.

So to be clear, the camera monitors my car parking area and also the entrance to the alleyway. Said alley way provides access to my rear garden (again by way of easement ie i do no own alleyway).

I cannot place the camera anywhere else in order for it to pickup the alley way and all of the car parking area which are directly below the wall


You have built even higher than that. Is that not a reasonable height for your neighbour to want to use as well? What kid of structure do you think you'd be able to get away with? A trespass is a trespass. Your camera isn't attached to an aeroplane.


no, its attached to my house and this is part of the house as is the roof and guttering. Plus my neighbour cannot build anything there as it would interfere with my right of way as well the fact he has no permitted development rights.
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:18 am

stressederic wrote:
Collaborate wrote:
stressederic wrote:It was installed a few months ago in response to my neigbours Restraining Order for harassment and his previous behaviour/vandalism/attempted criminal damage to my car. Of which i have old cctv footage of from a cctv cam which was inside my house looking out the window (which was no use in the dark).

Also, in reference to "such a height as is reasonably necessary for the ordinary use and enjoyment of his land and the structure upon it"...what ordinary use and enjoyment can my neighbour reasonably claim for 7M high , 4inches from my house wall...especially given my roof tiles will over hang approx 2inches of the said 4 inches of the camera??...not to mention the window lintels (its an old house).

The camera also picks up the 1.2 metre alleyway which starts 3M in,alongside the wall where the camera is.

So to be clear, the camera monitors my car parking area and also the entrance to the alleyway. Said alley way provides access to my rear garden (again by way of easement ie i do no own alleyway).

I cannot place the camera anywhere else in order for it to pickup the alley way and all of the car parking area which are directly below the wall


You have built even higher than that. Is that not a reasonable height for your neighbour to want to use as well? What kid of structure do you think you'd be able to get away with? A trespass is a trespass. Your camera isn't attached to an aeroplane.


no, its attached to my house and this is part of the house as is the roof and guttering. Plus my neighbour cannot build anything there as it would interfere with my right of way as well the fact he has no permitted development rights.
the ROW is a red herring insofar as he can still use the land so long as it does not compromise the ROW (or if it is does, it's not for very long).

which means he is entitled to eg drive a cherry picker onto that land and swing the cradle round in that airspace.

he could send you a letter in advance to advise this is what he was going to do and that if you did not remove the camera he'd remove it for you so that it wasn't damaged by the cradle.

he could then repeat this endlessly until you decided it wasn't worth putting the camera back up.

all perfectly lawful - and not harassment.

kind regards, Mac
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby stressederic » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:37 am

Fair enough. But I can see no reasonable reason as to why my neighbour would want to do this. The camera is basically next to my guttering but above it. Anything he wanted to do in that area would risk damaging my property and thats criminal damage.

And to be honest, if he wanted to go to those lengths, no skin off my nose i'll sit and watch him. However, if he did remove my camera and break anything, that too would be criminal damage.

The thing here is its all about being reasonable and that is how the courts look at it. Plus no mention of ADR, which the courts hate!

Also, would an LEI take this case on from a pov that it hits > 50% chance of success...my experience is that would be no...its so insignificant and I have some kind of defence / muddying of the waters that if i were in his shoes i wouldnt progress this claim, although he probably wont have thought about my defence/counter claims.

What i have learnt through all this heartache of solicitors etc, is that there are the legal facts, which you guys rightly all mention and point out but then there is the ' playing the game'...all of which is very costly. Its basically the same as being an invester/trader is this legal malarky.

I've had a think about what i can deem trespass if he wants to play these games...The bloke had a telephone wire attached across the front of my house not long after i moved in without my permission. This is because its the easiest route to his house and tbh I didnt really think much of it back then...however if he wants to play these games i'll too deem it as tresspass...his fence is sat on the edge of MY garden wall and leans over into my back garden...again trespass.
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:08 am

Hi stressederic,

getting sidetracked a bit but:

if he wanted to go to those lengths, no skin off my nose i'll sit and watch him. However, if he did remove my camera and break anything, that too would be criminal damage.

he would not be acting unlawfully by removing the camera if he'd already given you fair warning to remove the camera yourself - and if this caused minor incidental damage he would not be found guilty of criminal damage (which is a crime so would involve police and CPS, not a civil wrong where you take him to court).

The bloke had a telephone wire attached across the front of my house not long after i moved in without my permission.

if that wire is outside it will likely be classified as a piece of telecom apparatus owned by the statutory provider, not your neighbour - and statutory providers don't really need to ask your permission if push comes to shove.

his fence is sat on the edge of MY garden wall and leans over into my back garden

then sort it out if it's a problem.

you cannot argue this, or any other trespass on his part means the camera isn't a trespass.

is there some reason you can't move the camera or replace with an alternative in a different location?

kind regards, Mac
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