What is the legal definition in planning for residential use

This forum is for Garden Law problems that don't fit into the other categories. Please treat it with respect.

Moderator: Angelisle

What is the legal definition in planning for residential use

Postby Problems » Tue May 12, 2015 9:14 pm

I have a problem i have some stables with 6 acres adjoining they are brick built with planning permision for stables.
Over the first year i used them to keep and breed pedigree goats with the intention of trying to build up a bis
All was going along fine till we had a couple of break ins , goats let out, one altacked by a dog.
So i started staying longer hours and at night during breeding time.
Low and behold the council pole up oneday saying i have been reported for living there , i do not .
Admitedly i spend long hours there anything up to 18 hours sometimes.
Next they said i needed planning as i had my pet dogs inside the stable in the goat pens.
They told me i needed residential planning and permission to use stable as kennels and i should apply retrospective i did.
Low and behold it was turned down
Now they have served me with a enforcement notice re residential use and kennels.
And to remove any residential items
The stable has attatched store room that has sink table chairs, soffa always has
I have rung four different councils asking re what is residential use they all said its a grey area no hard fast rules
So now what
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby arsie » Wed May 13, 2015 1:30 am

Good name!

I am no expert but I believe that the changes of use allowed
https://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/changeofuse/ have only recently been amended, this year.

Others are far better qualified than me to comment in detail but surely keeping a guard dog or two on the premises doesn't turn stables into dog kennels? Nor does a sink, table and chairs in an office make premises 'residential'. Take advice; but I would appeal against the notice.
arsie
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Wed May 13, 2015 7:40 pm

I really hope they count chairs soffa ect as residential use previous owner did same so it would be excempt under 10 year change of use
but i am not letting that out till i appeal.
They will not even clarify residential use or furniture lol.
Rang a adjoining council and asked them they said its a grey area no hard fast rules pmsl.
I also said i was thinking about buying stables asking about furniture they said its ok as long as animals on site would even allow soffa and cooking facilities.
Even sleeping over if animals are sick or foaling would be ok.
Looks like some councils are human beings and some employ robots
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby boeingman » Wed May 13, 2015 10:16 pm

If the council are insisting that the use is residential then you will need to be able to prove 10 years continuous use. You will need a sworn statement from the previous owners and there needs to no large gaps in that use. If you can prove a material change of use then you are correct in that it becomes unenforceable after 10 years. It doesn't give you carte blanche to do what you want with it but the existing breach cannot be enforced. It won't necessarily stop them trying though!
boeingman
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:59 pm

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Fri May 15, 2015 10:49 am

I understand councils try to defend green belt
But this is crazy imo i rang a couple of different councils they said residential use is a grey area ...lol
But they all would allow seating tables,eating even cooking, as long as animals are on site.
They even said they would allow sleeping if animals were ill or kidding.
This council wont point blank.
Even to the extent that you are allowed to site a caravan tempory for seasonal work ie kidding no planning permission needed.
http://adlib.everysite.co.uk/adlib/defra/content.aspx?id=000HK277ZX.0C2LMJVX9OCD6A
Section v/ line 4
Councils head planner says it needs planning permission point blank.

At my wits end as they have served a enforcement notice friend said join NFU they have free legal planning advice.
NFU were great rang me were on phone for a hour
Head planner is wrong
Furniture is allowed.
Previous owners aregreat they are both doing letters but better still some of furniture was thiers they left it, i moved in daythey moved out.
Going to appeal as its not residential if they class furniture as resedential its only 4 years for a house and i am sure they dont want that ?

They wont listen to anything its just say as i do
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Fri May 15, 2015 11:47 am

Having dogs present in a stable block does not create a residential situation as far as I can tell. Go for the appeal but let them know the day prior to the appeal that you have sworn statements that there has been no change in the usage for 10 years. This is no different to many farms with livestock especially in remote locations away from the residence.


My fuzzy brain seems to remember some specific rules for smallholdings with no residential accommodation on site. Toilets and welfare such as a restroom and kitchen are normal parts of any commercial buildings as are companion dogs if staying and working long hours. Only guard and/or working dogs would be permitted 24/7 though.

Just wondering who wants your land as they seem keen to complain!!!!
Roblewis
 
Posts: 1762
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:41 pm

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri May 15, 2015 12:03 pm

Hi Problems,

its only 4 years for a house

its 4 years for constructing a building - yes.
its 10 years for changing the use of the land.

constructing the building does not in itself change the use.

I understand councils try to defend green belt

here is the wording from the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 you need to know - I've highlighted in blue the bits relevant to the points you're discussing on this thread (please read the full quote though):
Part 3 Change Of Use
Class Q – agricultural buildings to dwellinghouses

Permitted development

Q. Development consisting of

(a)a change of use of a building and any land within its curtilage from a use as an agricultural building to a use falling within Class C3 (dwellinghouses) of the Schedule to the Use Classes Order; and
(b)building operations reasonably necessary to convert the building referred to in paragraph (a) to a use falling within Class C3 (dwellinghouses) of that Schedule.
Development not permitted

Q.1 Development is not permitted by Class Q if

(a)the site was not used solely for an agricultural use as part of an established agricultural unit—
(i)on 20th March 2013, or
(ii)in the case of a building which was in use before that date but was not in use on that date, when it was last in use, or
(iii)in the case of a site which was brought into use after 20th March 2013, for a period of at least 10 years before the date development under Class Q begins;
(b)the cumulative floor space of the existing building or buildings changing use under Class Q within an established agricultural unit exceeds 450 square metres;
(c)the cumulative number of separate dwellinghouses developed under Class Q within an established agricultural unit exceeds 3;
(d)the site is occupied under an agricultural tenancy, unless the express consent of both the landlord and the tenant has been obtained;
(e)less than 1 year before the date development begins—
(i)an agricultural tenancy over the site has been terminated, and
(ii)the termination was for the purpose of carrying out development under Class Q,unless both the landlord and the tenant have agreed in writing that the site is no longer required for agricultural use;
(f)development under Class A(a) or Class B(a) of Part 6 of this Schedule (agricultural buildings and operations) has been carried out on the established agricultural unit—
(i)since 20th March 2013; or
(ii)where development under Class Q begins after 20th March 2023, during the period which is 10 years before the date development under Class Q begins;
(g)the development would result in the external dimensions of the building extending beyond the external dimensions of the existing building at any given point;
(h)the development under Class Q (together with any previous development under Class Q) would result in a building or buildings having more than 450 square metres of floor space having a use falling within Class C3 (dwellinghouses) of the Schedule to the Use Classes Order;
(i)the development under Class Q(b) would consist of building operations other than—
(i)the installation or replacement of—
(aa)windows, doors, roofs, or exterior walls, or
(bb)water, drainage, electricity, gas or other services,to the extent reasonably necessary for the building to function as a dwellinghouse; and
(ii)partial demolition to the extent reasonably necessary to carry out building operations allowed by paragraph Q.1(i)(i);
(j)the site is on article 2(3) land;
(k)the site is, or forms part of—
(i)a site of special scientific interest;
(ii)a safety hazard area;
(iii)a military explosives storage area;
(l)the site is, or contains, a scheduled monument; or
(m)the building is a listed building.
and here is what falls into the definition of 'article 2(3) land':
Land within—

(a)an area designated as a conservation area under section 69 of the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990 (designation of conservation areas);
(b)an area of outstanding natural beauty;
(c)an area specified by the Secretary of State for the purposes of section 41(3) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (enhancement and protection of the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside)(1);
(d)the Broads;
(e)a National Park; and
(f)a World Heritage Site.


I do not think 'green belt' is a category of article 2(3) land….

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 5965
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Fri May 15, 2015 2:09 pm

Cheers guys
Roblewies
Just wondering who wants your land as they seem keen to complain!!!!
That thought crossed my mind i heard rumours someone wantedit.
Even NFU guy said it sounds like someone is shoving the council.

Mac
Seen that its a real shame previous owners used it as stables previous and we bought it August 2013 :cry:
But this is how daft the council are they included this in enforcement notice

The alledged breach of planning control
"Without planning permission, the unotherised change of use of stable block for residential use and kenneling"

Reasons for issuing notice
It appears to the council that the above breach of planning control has occured in the last 10 years

Policy CMS1 = Basicicly its outside planning area in green belt.

DM2 = Framework indicates that the conversion of modern purpose built agricultral buildings will not be supported (Dispite government policy to contary)(Its modern brick and tile built stables)

DM3 Indicates instances where general development in the countryside may be acceptable and mine meets none of the critera ( Never submitted bis plan ect)

DM2 IS A REAL LAUGH
DM2 = Framework indicates that the conversion of modern purpose built agricultral buildings will not be supported ........(Dispite government policy to contary,Its modern brick and tile built stables why they mention it puzzles me))


Here are enforcement requirements

Here are the enforcement contitions
All sounds a bit vague to me
1 . Cease using stable block for residential use
2 . Cease using stable block as kenneling.
3 . Remove all beds,bedding and furniture associated with residential use from the stable block and remove from the land....... (no beds on site its a soffa)
4 .Remove metel kenneling cages from the stable block and remove from the land. (Metal goat pens)
5 .Remove all rubish, waste and non agricultral/equestianmaterial from the land. .......(no rubbish on site in fact everyone comments how tidy it is)

Going to appeal and spring letters from previous owners then
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri May 15, 2015 3:33 pm

Hi Problems,

the very fact that you bought the building in August 2013 which until that time had been used as stables means the following condition of the GPDO does not apply:
Q.1 Development is not permitted by Class Q if—

(a)the site was not used solely for an agricultural use as part of an established agricultural unit—
(i)on 20th March 2013
, or
(ii)in the case of a building which was in use before that date but was not in use on that date, when it was last in use, or
(iii)in the case of a site which was brought into use after 20th March 2013, for a period of at least 10 years before the date development under Class Q begins;
in other words, if the building was being put to agricultural use as part of an established agricultural unit on 20th March 2013 then the powers that be are going to have to find another reason to justify their claim that the change of use is not permitted as per the GPDO.

the only thing you have not done - apart from actually live in the stables :shock: - is gain the LPA's prior approval.
a 'prior approval' application requires the LPA to determine whether the proposed development would have an adverse effect on local traffic/noise levels, be on the site of a flood risk/contaminated, or whether the location of the building would be impractical/undesirable for the change of use.

Kind regards, Mac
Last edited by MacadamB53 on Fri May 15, 2015 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 5965
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby arborlad » Fri May 15, 2015 3:59 pm

Problems wrote:
The alledged breach of planning control
"Without planning permission, the unotherised change of use of stable block for residential use and kenneling"




If an unbiased stranger were to wander onto your property, would he get the impression that somebody was living there?
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7355
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Fri May 15, 2015 4:41 pm

Mac
I have not had much sleep last few days goats kidding and this enforcement notice crap
so i may be half asleep reading it wrong
My understanding was that it had to be in Agricultral use on or before march 2013,
From being built @ early 2005 it was stables with planning permission as such used by previous owner with residential use funiture i mentioned.
I thought it had to be in agricultral use before march 2013, As it never had agricultral use until me in Aug 2013 , it did not qualify until 10 years from date agricultral use started
if you follow . Have i got it wrong?
When they came they insisted as i needed planning permission for residential and kennel use (thier view point)
I should apply retrospective - i did.
We had a hour and odd meeting in council offices they made it clear no caravans and noway would they support conversion into house.
But if i submit planning using what i was they would look favourable on it, never believed them , could not even look me in the face.

No objections from anyone
I am sure it did not go in papers , was turned down for reasons on enforcement notice.

Question
Would a normal person think it was lived in fair question. From outside the building no

It has a fitted sink ina unit 3 other units with worktop for preperation area, soffa, 2 normal chairs , table , fridge, cooking facilities.

Then comes the question what is residential furniture
Sink used for preparing goat milk ,washing hands ect.
Fridge/frezzer - stores frozen goats milk for kids fride stores medicine that needs keeping chilled , milk for my tea ect
Table chairs i eat and drink and have a lunch break, soffa was here when i bought it
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby boeingman » Fri May 15, 2015 8:15 pm

The stables were built in 2005, presumably for equestrian use. Are there any conditions in the planning permission restricting their use? Is the adjoining land agricultural or equestrian? As you are aware equestrian use is not agricultural but what often happen is that permission for stables is granted but no change of use of the land is ever applied for so if this is the case, it is possible that the land is still designated agricultural. The equestrian use stopped when you bought the land which was less than 10 years after the stables were built, so unless change of use was granted it is agricultural land.

If there are no conditions in the stable block permission then it is arguable that by using them for goats you are changing the use of the buildings to agricultural and the council would be entitled to require you to apply for planning permission for change of use from equestrian to agricultural.

A sofa, sink and milk preparation area does not make the buildings residential and unless the dogs are there all the time then they cannot be described as kennels.

I can't for the life of me work out why the council would try and enforce against residential use, which is clearly not taking place. Appeal all the way!
boeingman
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:59 pm

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Fri May 15, 2015 9:18 pm

Hi
Hey i think you may have got something there sounds like what Mac was on about
i think they were applied for before 2005 and started completion was @2005.
My understanding isthe whole plot was agricultural ie field, they got planning permission for a corner with access already in place for stables(equestian) and store room say about quarter of acre.
only restriction was no commercial use ie livery.
When they got me to apply for planning they insit its two different plots but on enforcement it looks like one.
Dont think you need planning for agricultural use of stables thats why they worded enforcement remove anything non agricultral or equesrtian from stable block and land
Council are evasive to say least they know i am trying to aquire extra land hopefully to take it over 5 hectre then i have more options ie build barn and have temporary mobile home while its built
Enforcement officer and planning officer were argueeing with me for 10 mins about that had to get book out and look it up ....lol.
Never seen anything like it

I can't for the life of me work out why the council would try and enforce against residential use, which is clearly not taking place. Appeal all the way!
Think its to ensure no posibillity of the 4 year living there and claiming its a house
They are adament they do not want a house or caravan on here
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri May 15, 2015 10:37 pm

Hi Problems,

My understanding is the whole plot was agricultural ie field

ah, are you saying there is/was no house elsewhere on the land?

Think its to ensure no posibillity of the 4 year living there and claiming its a house

a few of us have mentioned a few times now - it's ten years, not four.

you're confusing the four year period they'd have to enforce against the unapproved construction of a house.
the change of use is a separate development and they have ten years to enforce against it.

Kind regards, Mac
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 5965
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Fri May 15, 2015 10:48 pm

Hi yes no house on land at all
Thought i read somewhere that if you turn a building into residential use and live in it for 4 years, but i have read that much i may have lost plot ..lol
See bottom time limits
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/1app/guidance/guidance_note-lawful_development_certificates.pdf

Was never the intention of having a house here , but being as they are acting like they are, im not ruling anything out.
Mate said register it in say 20 plots in different family names, recons your allowed to sleep in a caravan on your own land 28 days in a year.
Said swop van to different plots each day let them prove you didnt. Had to laugh.
Reminds me of that house down London turned down planning owner painted it with red and white strips.

I appreciate eveyones input thank you
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
Next

Return to General Topics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests