What is the legal definition in planning for residential use

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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby boeingman » Mon May 25, 2015 3:06 pm

ukmicky wrote:I think what you have probably got is a situation where the council are attempting to prevent you from claiming change of use in the future without going through the new prior notification process.

To prevent this they send an enforcement notice. You then will either defend by saying the property is not and has not being used as a dwelling house which will end any previous PD rights you may or the previous occupants have gained or will appeal and they will then gain some much needed guidance on the new rules from the courts if it got that far.. I would speak to an experienced professional planning consultant who is already working on cases in case you give up rights you may have in order to end any enforcement action.

Inclined to agree.
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Mon May 25, 2015 4:51 pm

Hence my reasoning to provide the two pronged argument that the LA was wrong to send the enforcement notice and if they were correct in doing so require the inspectorate to consider that the use as it stands has been greater than 10 years without enforcement and thus residential status has been gained by default. If you appeal the planning decision you certainly may lose the right to claim prior use qualification. If the LA are trying to set up stalking horses they may well prefer not to gamble on this case coming to a judgement and then losing the war with a pyrrhic victory over an enforcement letter.
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby boeingman » Mon May 25, 2015 7:05 pm

I do think, however, that true "residential" status will be very difficult to achieve. You will be able to prove occasional use over more than 10 years but this on it's own will not guarantee residential. You will almost certainly be able to keep the current status quo and be allowed to retain the furniture and milk preparation area but given the complete lack of toilet facilities you are going to struggle to prove that the use is truly residential.

The council enforcement notice is almost certainly designed to prevent long term change to proper residential use and I do think that it is quite likely to be successful in this respect.
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Mon May 25, 2015 9:05 pm

boeingman wrote:I do think, however, that true "residential" status will be very difficult to achieve. You will be able to prove occasional use over more than 10 years but this on it's own will not guarantee residential. You will almost certainly be able to keep the current status quo and be allowed to retain the furniture and milk preparation area but given the complete lack of toilet facilities you are going to struggle to prove that the use is truly residential.

The council enforcement notice is almost certainly designed to prevent long term change to proper residential use and I do think that it is quite likely to be successful in this respect.

I took some advice and messaged Pileman , i have to say this forum is a breath of freash air people offering advice and experience.
He is looking into papers but at first glance it looks like residential use over the 10 years would need more ie actually living there sleeping there every night, visitors coming and going and such like.
Which i understand and would say is fair but if thats the case i am dumbfounded how they can claim my use is residential and win but i have seen stranger things in my life.
CAKE AND EAT IT COMES TO MIND. I even understand thier position protecting green belt, but you do not find agricultral land in many places except green belt.

Worst bit for me i am legally allowed to have a caravan on site and live in it for kidding for 10 months a year.I need to build a 80x30 ft barn i can bet they will turn it down.
They are so set against a caravan on site in any shape or form.
Hence going for 5 hectres and going preditermind route for the barn,then i intend to apply for temporary permisson for a mobile home and i bet they turn it down.
Kidding is over in 3-4 months . So roll on December when i place a caravan here for next years season, the enforcement notice will come for it as sure as day.

Thats another reason to appeal enforcement notice forbids any residential items on site.

If the enforcement was just to stop any rights under 4 or 10 year rule and they left me alone that would be a different thing, i do not bet, but i am sure they wont leave it at that imo.

Looks like i will appeal pray planning inspector has a unbiased view and hope i can get the extra land sorted in case appeal fails.
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby boeingman » Mon May 25, 2015 10:04 pm

Problems wrote:I took some advice and messaged Pilman

Good advice!

Problems wrote:If the enforcement was just to stop any rights under 4 or 10 year rule and they left me alone that would be a different thing, i do not bet, but i am sure they wont leave it at that imo.

I think that the enforcement is simply designed to prevent what you have now from turning into residential.
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Mon May 25, 2015 10:20 pm

If the council enforcement is correct then they are saying the current use is residential and thus the inspector or other is asked to rule that in fact the 10 year rule evidence of continuous use has resulted in the position that the council are now trying to enforce a situation of some 13 years standing which they had previously ignored. They have to realise that to win on the enforcement letter means they have conceded that residential use is taking place as it has done for 13 years. If they accept or it is ruled that they were wrong then they are agreeing that current use is not residential
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby MacadamB53 » Mon May 25, 2015 10:56 pm

Hi Problems,

They told me i needed residential planning and permission to use stable as kennels and i should apply retrospective i did.

am I missing something?

you recently submitted a retrospective planning application for a "change of use" from X to residential and this was refused.

since the application was retrospective in nature you must have declared when the "change of use" occurred.

surely you can not now say you got mixed up and it's been ongoing for over a decade???

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Tue May 26, 2015 8:29 am

Hi Mac
When they came out on site and looked around and said it was residential use end of were not intrested in anything else, i said i did not live here .
They said i had oppertunity to apply for retrospective planning permission.
I went in had a hour and twenty min meeting with planning .
THEY MADE IT OBVIOUS NO CARAVAN UNDER ANY CURCUMSTANCES.
But conversation went along the lines they understood the security aspect and animal welfare.
If they could put something together along the lines, if i agreed to only use the storeroom part,agreed not to make the rest into a house or place a caravan on site they would look favorably on it,
I now realise i was led up the garden path and they turned it down for the above reasons.
The 10 year thing only came to light after the enforcement notice was issued.
Previous owners used it along simalar lines from feb/march 2003 until i purchased it in Aug 2013. Leaving said furniture in.
The council are still unaware of this as ,i was till the enforcement notice came and i spoke to previous owners.
Spoke to gamekeeper he is coming up tonight he told me previous owner even stayed here a few nights nothing that you could claim was residential but if my use is then imo that should be.
I did not put residential on the application the council did i put security office animal welfare/ items ect if i recall correctly.
The store room is 12.5 feet x 12.5 feet with one small unopening window 2 feet square ,imo i do not see how it could be called residential anyway
The kennels part i said was for treating goats bottle feeding ect and if not in use at time i would place my pet dogs inside
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue May 26, 2015 10:14 am

Hi Problems,

I did not put residential on the application the council did

please explain - are you saying they amended your application?

i put security office animal welfare/ items ect if i recall correctly.

is this the development you described as taking place to warrant the retro app? when did you claim this had occurred?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Tue May 26, 2015 10:36 am

Here is clip from planning application form just finding relevent bits

3. Description of the Proposal
Please describe the proposed development including any change of use:
I would like to continue the use of the washroom/storeroom room as a washroom/storeroom and security office for use at day and night and the stables to be used as
kennels for my dogs as required when i am on site, each stable being split down the centre with detachable mesh panels and gates, I am also currently training a sheep dog
to aid with rounding up the goats which will be kept in the kennels. The remaining split stable is to be used as emergency shelter/ treatment for my goats if they have
difficulty when giving birth to their kids so I can give them prompt attention if and when the need arises. Also if the kids are rejected from their mother they will need to be
kept close for animal welfare e.g. feeding bottles and ensuring they are kept warm


Intresting where its says
Has the building, work or change of use already started?
i marked the box no, by mistake
Looks like i made a dogs dinner of it
The property is rurally situated on xxxxxxxxx The property is both rural and isolated, with the nearest property, which is currently vacant and up for sale (6 months), approximately 250 metres away. There is no clear view of this property as there is a wooded area dividing the two properties. There are no other properties with a view of the premises due to its remote location, therefore I receive no benefit from having neighbours. (See attached doc 1 ) . There is a layby which adjoins my property which is used day and night, with vehicles left for hours. fly tipping occurs at this site and there is evidence of people walking onto my property and along the hedge which borders my property from this layby.
I am applying for retrospective permission to retain change of use of the brick built stable block for Mixed Use purposes. At present, this comprises of two stables, currently used as kennels and shelter for ill goats .With one third being a washroom, storeroom ,to store drugs, medicines, first aid kit ect and as a security office on the six and a half acre plot.
The land is split into 4.5 acres used as pastures separated into several paddocks to be used as grazing land for one horse, two ponies (Horse and ponies only resident temporary till the goat herd reaches the desired size) and my herd of pedigree breeding Boer goats comprising of 17 does and 1 billy goat with the does currently in kid, with kidding due to start in December through till late September. This will increase the herd to approximately 35 goats in the spring 2015 and 55 goats in 2016. With the objective of establishing a 70 head breeding herd. Pedigree Boer goats are currently valued at between £400 and £800 each depending on their pedigree. The property is registered with DEFRA and I have a CPH number, 32/257/xxxxx, this therefore means that I am legally subject to DEFRA rules and regulations regarding animal welfare, safety and movement. Also I am member of the British Boer Goat Society, member number 005xx, my goat herd has been registered and has registration papers and pedigrees. (See attached doc2)
The remaining 2 acres are planted with maize for the local shoot to use as cover for the game birds and as feed for the goats from November through till March.
I would like to continue with the use of the washroom/storeroom room as a washroom/storeroom/office, and security office for use at day and night and for the stables to be used as kennels for my dogs as required when I am on site which is often for extended periods. Each stable being split down the centre with detachable mesh panels and gates, I am also currently training a sheep dog to aid with rounding up the goats which will be kept in the kennels. The remaining split stable is to be used as emergency shelter/ treatment rooms for my goats if they have difficulty when giving birth to their kids so I can give them prompt attention if and when the need arises. Also if the kids are rejected from their mother they will need to be kept close for animal welfare e.g. feeding bottles and ensuring they are kept warm
I need to have a security office to be used day and night, as in the past I have had several break-ins one of which resulted in approximately £5000.00 worth of machinery being stolen in January 2014. The police were informed and attended but as there was no forensic evidence nothing was recovered. Access was made by the thieves through a field, a hedge which was chopped down and across 2 of my paddocks. Several neighbouring farms had machinery and tractors stolen around the same time.
I have caught trespassers on site after they had cut through the locks and chain using an angle grinder. On one occasion they turned on the taps causing flooding and water damage on this occasion. On other occasions the locks have been damaged and the chain removed, leaving the gates wide open and unsecure for the animals. Gates have been left open and the animals have escaped, on more than one occasion onto the very busy Oldxxxx and xxxton road. For this to happen at least three gates have to be left open, so it is my feeling that this was intentional malicious act.
There are a lot of game birds both on my premises in the maize field and the surrounding fields and they attract poachers who enter my property through adjoining fields and I have had to ask them to leave several times.
Unfortunately no matter how secure we make the gates trespassers can access the property through the adjoining fields and the boundaries are hedges comprising mainly of hawthorn, post and rail fencing and galvanised stock fencing.
As part of DEFRA regulations , drugs medicines and first aid equipment and Information about the goats has to be kept on site. I have hard copies and a computer records, therefore if someone enters the property it is more than possible they could steal the goats, which given their value would prove to be an attractive proposal and they also have access to records, registration details and the computer with its records. (See attached doc3) In addition, according to DEFRA, horned animals e.g. goats require frequent observation to ensure that they do not get horns caught in fencing, hedges etc. We have had to rescue our goats from some unusual places as they are quite the escape artists and are very curious and adventurous.
I have had two separate stray dog attacks on the goats, one of which resulted in a goat being seriously injured and it required daily vetinary treatment for a week and further treatment for 2 weeks. Her ear had to be amputated, as it was so severely injured it could not be saved and her rear was savagely bitten requiring stitches on her vulva and rectum. I was on the premises at the time so was able to get the dogs off her and save her from further injuries and also rush her to the vets for prompt treatment thus saving her life. (See attached doc4)
In conclusion, I therefore need to ensure that the premises are secure day and night to keep the buildings damage/theft free and the animals safe and secure. I also need to be on site at all hours day and night at kidding time (December – September) for the goats when giving birth in case they have difficulties.
I have my pet dogs with me when I attend site due to the extended hours I have to spend there and I therefore benefit from a personal safety measure and an early warning alarm in case of intruders, they have discouraged potential intruders in the past. These require kennelling when I am on site and I propose to seek retrospective permission to continue using the converted stables which has 4 kennels, using 3 of them to house the dogs and keeping one free for use of the goats when kidding. Also if the kids are rejected from their mother they will need to be kept close for animal welfare e.g. feeding bottles and ensuring they are kept warm.


I was in the middle of kidding at the time with very little sleep and i should of got some advise big mistake but i have not agreed to residential use anywhere i can see
Were ahead with 35 goats now and 6 more still to kid so possibly 47 goats. With 30+ being breeding does for next year.Which equates to 85+ goats onsite next year subject to shelter
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:25 pm

Well appeals in, a massive thank you to Pileman and everyone else.
Will keep you updated on results, can not say much now but the council have me in stitches
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:11 pm

Remember to keep reiterating that the use is the same as it has been for the last 13 years and that should the LA win then they are conceding that the use has been residential for 13 years without challenge. You did not claim residential use it is the LA that has stated this. Pilman is certainly right in that much more evidence of residence would be required if you were seeking to establish such from scratch. It is however the LA declaring the use as residential and thus if they win the appeal against the letter then they must live by the consequences of their declaration-- they will have proved for you that the last 13 years was residential use without action by themselves.
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:23 pm

Wow these appeals drag on, just got email from inspectorate saying Council have approx 3 weeks to submit their side.
Seen a car about a few times may be wrong but i get the feeling of being watched.
Funny how you miss the obvious i have CCTV cameras to keep a eye on goats for kidding ect, and just realised that it shows entrance.
I have a good few months of CCTV footage showing me leaving late at night and returning in the mornings 100s of hours worth ,shame it does not go back to the start.

Well at least its finally moving
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:49 am

Couple of questions regarding Permitted development - 5 hectre
Do not want to keep bothering Peter, Local gamekepper put me in touch with local land owner aparently this council are known for throwing hurdles up - just my luck.
He has offered me as much land as i need to get up to 5 hectres, couple of questions would woodland qualify or does it need to be fields.
i intend to put in Permitted development for 4500 ft steel barn think everything else fits criteria.
Here is the icing on cake if it is correct, i have been told to put in for temporary permission for a mobile home on site while i build the barn.
That would be fantastic and solve my other issues if its possible.
Next question is would council have resonable grounds to refuse mobile home or am i entitled to till the barns completed.
Also how long could i take to build the barm ie maximum time.

Any advice would be apreciated before submiting applications, this will really put cat in with pigeons
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:50 pm

It does really depend on how complex the barn is and the lead times. If you unthinkingly lay a base and only then select a non standard structure with a very long lead time 12 months would or could be the very shortest time.

I wonder what Pilman thinks about the time allowance as it is some time since you appealed. It seems a trifle long to me
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