What is the legal definition in planning for residential use

This forum is for Garden Law problems that don't fit into the other categories. Please treat it with respect.

Moderator: Angelisle

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:56 pm

Roblewis wrote:It does really depend on how complex the barn is and the lead times. If you unthinkingly lay a base and only then select a non standard structure with a very long lead time 12 months would or could be the very shortest time.

I wonder what Pilman thinks about the time allowance as it is some time since you appealed. It seems a trifle long to me

Appeal went in on 3rd June, Council recieved thier copy then.
Recieved a email from planning inspectorate saying it was excepted on 22nd july council have till 4th August to complete questionare and submit response so we are waiting.
Do not know how true this is intend to put up portal steel barn around 4500 sqft. Was told i can take 3-4 years to build it and have tempory mobile home on site while its completed. Do not know if its true or not. Could build barn in stages and as i can be busy at kidding ect the build could drag on .
Just wondered if council can turn down temporary permission for mobile home while i undertake the build ?

I expect them to try and stop anything i apply to do and have to appeal any applications.
Guy that has offered the extra land is a developer has a fantastic place he has been doing up for 3 years its under a different council about a mile away with the land.

He said he would not undertake any deveopment under this council aparently head planner is known to cause problems and not willing to work things out, his words.
Next door only real neighbour had a year old land rover stolen last night was parked out side house on gravel drive they ran a rope across two paddocks with quad behind hedge pulled landrover up a bank cut two gate locks, towed it down to side of my property cut down a full grown hedge and towed it through 3 fields unbelievable unless you see it with your own eyes.

Police did not even come out and council complain about me being here late at night checking place is safe, dam shame if i had been here would of heard it
Worried herd of goats will vanish now @£15k had large diesel mowers stolen jan and it is same mo looks like same gang back :x
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby pilman » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:51 pm

Here is the icing on cake if it is correct, I have been told to put in for temporary permission for a mobile home on site while I build the barn.
Who told you that?
That sounds like something said in a pub after four hours of good drinking by someone who knows very little about what is allowed to happen under permitted development rights, or what sort of planning application would be successful.

Even the erection of a barn on farmland which is in excess of 5 hectares needs the council's prior approval, but why would someone self-building a barn need to live on site in a caravan or mobile home?

Most times if a prior approval is given the barn manufacturer comes along to offer a supply and erect service, or the manufacturer of the steel frame delivers the parts so that a local builder can finish it.
If the local farmer wants to save costs by erecting this agricultural barn himself, why does that require a caravan or mobile home on site during construction?

In April 2015 the Governement issued the the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015.

Part 4 is relevant.
PART 4
Temporary buildings and uses
Class A – temporary buildings and structures

Permitted development
A. The provision on land of buildings, moveable structures, works, plant or machinery required
temporarily in connection with and for the duration of operations being or to be carried out on,
in, under or over that land or on land adjoining that land.


Development not permitted
A.1 Development is not permitted by Class A if—
(a) the operations referred to are mining operations, or
(b) planning permission is required for those operations but is not granted or deemed to be
granted.
Conditions
A.2 Development is permitted by Class A subject to the conditions that, when the operations have
been carried out—
(a) any building, structure, works, plant or machinery permitted by Class A is removed, and
(b) any adjoining land on which development permitted by Class A has been carried out is, as
soon as reasonably practicable, reinstated to its condition before that development was
carried out.
I can't see that a temporary building for living in is necessary for the erection of an agricultural barn.
A site hut for the builder to use during the day would be acceptable, or a steel container for storing materials and tools, which is the sort of structure that is normally considered appropriate when development takes place, but a mobile home for living in cannot possibly be what this part of the GPDO refers to.
pilman
 
Posts: 2840
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:08 pm

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:24 pm

Hi Peter
Carnt remmember who told me think i read it somewhere as well.
But looks like it was wrong then :(
Still need barn way things are going will be 80 goats here come spring when i met with them with regards to the other issue they made it clear they would not make things easy re barn hence going the 5 hectre route for the barn

Safer Routes: The DIY Farm/Smallholding

Another tactic open to single house-holds is to buy a suitable piece of agricultural land and submit an 'agricultural prior notice consent form' to the local planning office detailing the agricultural building you intend to build on your land. This is 'permitted development' on agricultural land and hence doesn't need planning permission. You should receive consent within 28 days and are then entitled to commence building.

You can then legally site a temporary mobile home on the land to live in whilst you build your barn (and set up your business). Your temporary accommodation can remain in place for five years (presumably as long as you are still building your barn) during which time you need to develop your business to generate as much income as possible.

At the end of five years you apply for planning permission to build a house. You must prove that you need to live on-site in order to run your business, e.g. caring for livestock that breed all year round, and that your business generates sufficient income to support you

No doubt old articles

[url]http://www.permaculture.co.uk/articles/how-get-planning-permission-non-development-land
[/url]
This was not where i read it and i do not doubt a lot of incorrect information appears on the internet
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby boeingman » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:22 pm

Problems wrote:i do not doubt a lot of incorrect information appears on the internet

Possibly the most accurate statement I have ever read!
boeingman
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:59 pm

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:36 am

The only relief to put any overnight accommodation would be for an employed nightwatch person during the construction period only. The rub here is that this construction, if you bring in a single contractor at any stage it will be subject to the Construction (Design & Management) Regulations 2015. So you literally will have to do everything yourself, eg operate crane, unload materials, move all materials etc etc. in order to avoid their effect. A portal frame building is impossible to do single handed. But the good news as a designated construction site under CDM the council will need to allow toilets, welfare and rest facilities, hot and cold water, temporary power supply, showers etc for the duration.

Pilman is right though construction in itself does not permit ongoing residential caravans or cabins except of course if you are building the likes of a refinery with 24 hour working and relevant planning consents.

Remember to keep the Inspector focused on the wrongness of the enforcement letter and alternatively if the enforcement is correct then Residential use has started, according to the council enforcement planner, and your evidence shows it started more than 12 years ago thus enforcement is time barred. Good luck and appeal every decision you do not like.
Roblewis
 
Posts: 1764
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:41 pm

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:47 pm

Cheers Roblewis
Intend to but just trying to get up a backup plan together.
Kidding starts in December so if we do not get any joy on the appeal, looks like i will be placing a temporary caravan then for 10 months.
NFU said i am entitled to and it does not need planning as long as its removed for two months =its permitted development.Head council planner insists it needs planning permission
Not quite sure where that will stand if the enforcement notice is granted, expect the council to take me to court or serve a enforcement notice on that.
Fingers crossed planning inspector is more ressonable than the LPA

Saw a case in court where this council served similar enforcement notice on some stables, re residential furniture they never contested it.
Council went back found residential furniture.Husband was fined £3750 and £1250 costs, wife got fined £3500 and £1250 costs... crazy :evil:
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby pilman » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:19 pm

Just saw this while looking for some information about caravan accommodation on agricultural land.
Planning permission is required for most building or engineering works on, above or under land, subject of course to many rules and exemptions. As caravans are not legally "buildings", the stationing of a caravan on land does not necessarily need planning permission. Instead, caravans are subject to the Caravan Sites and Development Control Act 1960, and its amendments. Site licences are normally required. With regard to farming, the Act states that; "a site licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site on agricultural land for the accommodation during a particular season of a person or persons employed in farming operations on land in the same occupation".

So no caravan site licence or planning permission is required for the seasonal stationing of a caravan as temporary accommodation for agricultural and forestry workers. An example where such accommodation is frequently supplied is for a shepherd at lambing time. However the word "seasonal" is clearly important and any such caravans must be removed from the site after the period during which they are required has ended and their occupation must cease.


That made me look at the Caravan Sites and Development Control Act 1960 where Schedule 1 lists the exemptions for
Agricultural and forestry workers

7 Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of agricultural land for the accommodation during a particular season of a person or persons employed in farming operations on land in the same occupation.

8 Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan site for the accommodation during a particular season of a person or persons employed on land in the same occupation, being land used for the purposes of forestry (including afforestation).

Paragraph 13 stated that a local council can apply to have any exemptions removed.
Power to withdraw certain exemptions

13(1)The Minister may on the application of a local authority by order provide that, in relation to such land situated in their area as may be specified in the order, this Schedule shall have effect as if paragraphs 2 to 10, or such one or more of those paragraphs as may be so specified, were omitted from this Schedule.

(2)An order under this paragraph—

(a)shall come into force on such date as may be specified therein, and

(b)may, on the application of the local authority on whose application it was made, be varied or revoked by a subsequent order made thereunder,

and, except in the case of an order the sole effect of which is to revoke in whole or part a previous order, the local authority shall, not less than three months before the order comes into force, cause a notice setting out the effect of the order and the date on which it comes into force to be published in the London Gazette or, if the land is in Scotland, in the Edinburgh Gazette and in a local newspaper circulating in the locality in which the land to which the order relates is situated.


Since that is the current law regarding caravans being used for seasonal accommodation on an agricultural holding, I would think that a goat farm during kidding would satisfy that need.

The opposite of "no kidding" seems relevant in this case. :lol:
pilman
 
Posts: 2840
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:08 pm

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby ukmicky » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:36 pm

Pilman

Does a prior notification process need to be followed.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
ukmicky
 
Posts: 4544
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:13 pm
Location: London

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:38 pm

Problems

Yes you needed to appeal and the case you mentioned was intended as a deliberate deception as I understand it. As I said if the LPA position is accepted by the inspector they will have to provide evidence to refute your sworn evidence that the use is of more than 12+ years standing.
Roblewis
 
Posts: 1764
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:41 pm

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:02 pm

Pileman
Thanks for clearing that up, looks like that will bethe back up plan.
Should get interesting if i am forced to go that route as the LPA were adament they would not allow a caravan on site. :o
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:48 pm

Well council were due to fill in questionare and respond by 4th August, nothing on planning portal yet
But co owner recieved this this morning notifiying appeal was submited

Noticed a couple of points
in quotes
1 Appeal against refusal of planning permission for residential use (Did not appeal planning permission refusal,despite me not regarding any of it as residential, the council did)
Surely i have a valid case as i asked them what was residential before any enforcement was in place and have never recieved a reply
Surely that would have with held me any oppertunity to rectify anything avoiding any possible action ?

2 I am called a developer ... mmm lol

3 Back to the DM2 bit they do not support moden farm buildings being turned into residential (Despite government policy to contary? )

3 No mention of the so called mess and tidying up (That never existed imo)

Carnt wait to se evidence


30 July 2015

Description: Appeal against Refusal of Planning Permission to Retain the Change of
Use of Existing Stable Block for Residential Use, Kennelling, Storage and
Security


-
The Council issued an Enforcement Notice for the above unauthorised development and the
developer has appealed against the notice. Therefore, the requirements of the notice will be
held in abeyance pending the result of the Appeal.
REASONS FOR ISSUING THE NOTICE:
It appears to the Council that the above breach of planning control has occurred within the
last ten years.
Contrary to Policy CS1 of the Bassetlaw Local Development Framework
Contrary to Policy DM2 of the Bassetlaw Local Development Framework

Contrary to Policy DM3 of the Bassetlaw Local Development Framework
Contrary to Part 6 of the National Planning Policy Framework
Policy CS1 of the Bassetlaw Local D~velopment Framework states that development will be
restricted to areas within defined Development Boundaries. The site lies outside a
Development Boundary and therefore in the countryside, as defined in the Bassetlaw Local
Development Framework.
Policy DM2 of the Framework indicates that the conversion of modern, pu·rpose-built
agricultural buildings for residential purposes will not be supported.

,
Policy DM3 indicates where general development in the countryside may be acceptable and
the proposal meets none of the criteria outlined.
Planning permission was granted for the stables and store on the basis that the proposed
use was appropriate and necessary in a rural location. The existing operations at the site
are of a low key nature and no substantial evidence or long term business plan has been
submitted with an application indicating an essential need for a permanent residential use at
the site. The current use is therefore contrary to the above policies of the Bassetlaw Local
Development Framework and Section 6 of the National Planning Policy Framework which
indicates that Local Planning Authorities should avoid isolated homes in the countryside
unless there are spe~ial circumstances.

APPELLANT'S GROUNDS OF APPEAL AGAINST THE NOTICE:

Ground B - That the Breach of control alleged in the enforcement notice has not occurred as
a matter of fact.
Ground D - That, at the time the enforcement notice was issued, it was too late to take
enforcement action against the matters stated in the notice.
The appeal is to be decided on the basis of Written Representation and a copy of the 'Guide
to taking part in-enforcement appeals proceeding in England' is enclosed.
The appellant's grounds of appeal can be inspected in the Planning Services offices at
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:00 pm

I would submit a further letter to the inspector stating to the effect
1) The response of the council is factually inaccurate as you are neither(a) developer nor (b) had requested permission to change the stables into residential accommodation. Your are in fact a goat farmer/breeder running a nucleate goat rearing/livestock business who simply has welfare accommodation for yourself whilst spending long hours assisting goats who are kidding 24/7 during the season. Further their response is incorrect in its claim that you are appealing their refusal to grant planning for residential use as you are appealing their enforcement letter claiming it is residential use and they failed to properly discuss the matter before enforcement.

2) The council have submitted no written evidence to show that this same use has not been taking place for 12+ years and if they are correct in their view they themselves have made the control of that use time barred.

3) In making the inaccurate statements and failing to submit evidence other than their planning guidance they are wasting the inspectors time and making it not possible for you to fairly respond to their views.


I would now open a second front against the head of planning with a formal complaint to the LA Chief Executive setting out the facts to date. Claim that this has been a waste of time and money as you have never wished or intended to develop on this site - you are simply a goat farmer wishing to carry on with your business. Point out that this was a knee jerk reaction to a farmer who is wishing to care for his livestock and have some welfare whislt doing so.
Roblewis
 
Posts: 1764
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:41 pm

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:35 pm

Hi Roblewis thanks
Is it normal to put developer in such a statement ?
Hardly development a soffa,table ,chairs,kettle ect.
Wonder if they have finally done some reaserch and realise this is not the only property i own ?
Skinks imo if thats all they have submitted in 2 months nothing on planning portal yet,thought the questionare from planning inspector would at least be on.
Was going to hold fire on the chief executive of LPA route till later,December when i place the caravan for kidding, sure theywill pole up with enforcement notice or try to take me to court if this one gets uphelp.
Will go the harasment route then, this enforcement officer spoke with Peter on the phone think in a previous life he was a writer for Jackanory.
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:22 pm

Spitting feathers 4 months down the line and council submit case.
Couple of photos that can be interpreted how you choose to believe them.

But the best bit enforcement officer and planning officer visited and i told them i did what they said.
Residential use and kennels. Unbelievable

And they are putting in for costs
Problems
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 8:34 am

Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:22 pm

Best get some photos of your own to the inspector showing a goodly group of goats in a field. You just about have time. Get some of the residential facilities ie a sofa in a barn and a kettle.
Roblewis
 
Posts: 1764
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:41 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
PreviousNext

Return to General Topics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron