What is the legal definition in planning for residential use

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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Janieb » Sun May 17, 2015 5:54 pm

Not ever have kept goats but as an ex sheep farmer's wife. Lambing time was very intensive. Myself and my sister-in-law (we both had fulltime jobs) would take it in turns to be in the lambing barns whilst our husbands got some sleep. To be honest the lambing pens were next to our houses but had they not been we would have set up a scenario that meant we could make a drink and sleep. This doesn't make this a residential area and I feel that the tw@ts that are doing this have no idea as to how the countryside works.
"I prefer rogues to imbeciles, because they sometimes take a rest" Alexandre Dumas (fils)
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Mon May 18, 2015 7:09 pm

Janieb spot on
Doubt they have any done any manual labour in thier lives bar lifting a pen.
Its 95% arable farming around here and i get the impression they think the rest should be green fields.
When i left school i had 3 years on a 2000+ sheep farm and its hard work.

I have emailed them asking them for clarification as to what constitutes residential use at
the stables and what you describe as residential furniture

Also asked
Also can I have clarification on the question of me sitting a temporary caravan here for seasonal accommodation for an agricultural employee, I believe it is classed as a permitted development and as such does not need planning permission ?

Yet I have been informed by your planning department it does.
I have enquired with different councils and they say it does not.
The national farmers union legal and planning department who have delft with this issue hundreds of times insist it does not.

I am confused perhaps you could explain how you reach a different conclusion

No reply as yet
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Tue May 19, 2015 12:12 pm

Without a formal appeal they will NOT respond as they have no duty to do so - they have issued their letter. Appeal on the basis I have stated above. If they win they have then to deal with the fact that it has been like it for 10 years and they failed to enforce so it now does have residential use planning status. You must make the and/or alternatively section of the appeal as this is your best lever for the Council to be sensible as they stand to lose out big time if the Appeal agrees there has been 10 years use in the same manner.
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Tue May 19, 2015 1:29 pm

Thanks Roblewis
Think you thoughts are the way to go , they wont have a clue the 10 year thing is coming.
They are expecting me to appeal on the refusal not the enforcement notice.
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Tue May 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Do both as I suggest as they are likely to give ground on one not to have to fight the other as they have no evidence at all about when these things started to become part of the situation on site. They would be foolish in extremis to risk a decision against themselves on the 10 years.
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Tue May 19, 2015 10:04 pm

Cheers Rob
Things are coming together nicely plans were passed in 2000, floor and walls were up 2002.
Was completed 2003 all moved in July 2003 photos to prove.
Done letters stating they fitted sink had wardrobe,soffa,table chairs,heating,toaster,radio.Stated they cooked and ate in there and used it as a lounge everyday until they sold it to me leaving the furniture for me i moved in and continued to do the same.
Was 10 years before i moved in, wish i could see enforcement officers face when he reads it.
Just got to get statement from gamekeeper he used to pop in and have a cuppa and a bacon sarnie lol
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Thu May 21, 2015 12:27 am

Yippe
Just took a look at the appeals pages on gov portal.
Got letters from owner and her daughter re previous use will they surfice or do i need statutory declarations?
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby MacadamB53 » Thu May 21, 2015 12:51 am

Hi Problems,

photographic evidence would be ideal.

I do not think having the previous owner write to say "it has been used like this for ten years" will be suffice on its own, otherwise it would make enforcement a sham.

did they have any work done on site at some point during the ten year period - getting statements from tradesmen would help.

you mentioned a gamekeeper - again helpful.

as for the other angle - no change of use - does the site have its own postal address? if not good...

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Thu May 21, 2015 1:45 am

Hi Mac
Understand sham thing but they have no reason to get involved as sale was ages ago, they came to me with previous use bit
So far i have Daughters and mums statement her father had it built ut he has passed away
Game keeper will do statement , photos i will have to check.
If thats all i have does not look good then?

No proper address.
Says on appeals advice pages sides should try to reach a settlement lol they wont even tell me what they mean by residential
Roll on next kidding season looks like i will get another enforcement notice.

Thanks for input
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Fri May 22, 2015 9:15 am

Been reading through a few appeals, does any one have any experience ?
Going to use the two angles posted above but could i also hit it from another angle.
Under special curcumstances they allow residential use in geen belt.
I need to be present for animal welfare , kidding ect.
1.I have no experience in these maters but they are pedigree goats quite valuble anything up to £1500 each. More if show wins.
2. Quite easy to steal due to being partly hand reared will walk up to people.
3. Local shoot surrounds my property they rear game birds and have poaching problems.
4. i have had £5000 worth of machinary stolen police reported.
5. Numerous times lock cut gates open animal let out, one occasion on to the road.
6. Goats altacked badly by stray dogs photos and vets evidence.
6~ Lay by adjacent to property often fly tipping even thrown on to my land everything from household to petrol tanks and chemical drums, have photos and been reported to council
7. No visable changes to outside of building they claim is residential, or surrounding land. No effect on loss of views ect.
8. Transport bus stop 600 metres up the road.
9. Less traffic to site as no need to go back and forwards home,less deliveries as could store more feed ect as it would be more secure.
10. Improvements to countryside as we are hedging all fields as goats are prone to getting stuck in existing wire fencing and need suppervion
11. Intension to grow businness add buildings, have funds ect.
12 Have right to sleep in caravan for kidding anyway.

Would i stand a chance ?
Last edited by Problems on Fri May 22, 2015 10:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri May 22, 2015 9:26 am

Hi all,

the OP's refused application for "change of use" was a retrospective one prompted by a visit from the LPA.

I'd like to hear the thoughts from any planning experts the forum about whether this might affect an appeal against enforcement on the grounds the change of use has not occurred?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Fri May 22, 2015 1:58 pm

Thought this was intresting regarding LDC and evidence required

DoE Circular 10/97 relating to the enforcement of planning control is quite useful in setting out the general position regarding evidence at appeal. At paragraph 8.15, which relates to LDCs, it is advised that the burden of proof is on the appellant, but that the relative test of evidence is the "balance of probability" rather than the stricter "beyond reasonable doubt" employed in the criminal courts. The circular adds that the appellant's own evidence does not have to be corroborated by "independent" evidence in order to be accepted, this ruling being derived from the court case FW Gabbitas v Secretary of State for the Environment and Newham London Borough Council [1985]. The circular continues that if the local planning authority has no evidence of their own, or from others, to contradict or otherwise make the appellant's version of events less that probable, there is no good reason to refuse the application. Applying this guidance to your case it is clear that if you do not have evidence, such as the rating or electricity bills required by the local authority, this need not necessarily be a problem, provided that the veracity of your witness statements is to be believed on the balance of probability when weighed against anything the council may produce to the contrary
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Roblewis » Fri May 22, 2015 6:08 pm

Clearly it would be best if the letters could be transposed into sworn statements and I would do this if possible. I would additionally make a statement concerning the items you identified above to justify your need to attend long hours. Focus it as an appeal against the enforcement letter NOT the refusal of the application, Plus should or alternatively the appeal fails then the LPA must recognise that the statements and evidence show they have failed to enforce for 10 years and thus residential use is de facto established due to their lack of enforcement
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby Problems » Fri May 22, 2015 7:28 pm

May be i should get a planning consultant to do appeal ?
Anyone reccomend one in Notts / South Yorkshire Area may help if they are used to Agricultral issues.
Any idea of rough costs i know its like how long is a piece of string.
I would like to thank everyone for thier input it is very much appreciated.
When i posted on another forum most of the posts were along the lines my fault for not buying a property with residential use
And basicly do as your told or sell up. What a helpful bunch
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Re: What is the legal definition in planning for residential

Postby ukmicky » Fri May 22, 2015 7:37 pm

[
boeingman wrote:It is quite possible that the council will take no further action. If they have issued enforcement proceedings then the clock has stopped on the 10yr/4yr clock regarding any possible residential use. They might be happy that you are not living there and the enforcement notice now means that you will never become unenforceable.


Unless PD rights have been gained prior to the new rules in march 2015 I believe.

Most councils are trying to get a working understanding of the new rules including those that allow agricultural buildings or parts of buildings changing use to that of a dwelling house.

I'm not a planning guru and don't pretend to be but there is more to this that meets the eyes and the council are doing this simply because of the new rule changes .

We are at the start of a big change in planning laws and currently there is very little case law dealing with the changes . When new laws come out there will be many grey areas that require clarification by the courts and In the absence of that case law the planning departments can only read what is written and use there own interpretation as to what the new rules mean. Planning departments in such circumstances tend to give nothing and adopt a very strict approach to what they believe to be the law.

They need enforcement appeals to go to the courts or planning inspectorate so they can argue what their interpretation of the new rules allows in the real world.

I think what you have probably got is a situation where the council are attempting to prevent you from claiming change of use in the future without going through the new prior notification process.

To prevent this they send an enforcement notice. You then will either defend by saying the property is not and has not being used as a dwelling house which will end any previous PD rights you may or the previous occupants have gained or will appeal and they will then gain some much needed guidance on the new rules from the courts if it got that far.. I would speak to an experienced professional planning consultant who is already working on cases in case you give up rights you may have in order to end any enforcement action.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
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