Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

This forum is for Garden Law problems that don't fit into the other categories. Please treat it with respect.

Moderator: Angelisle

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:10 am

Hi John,
You seem to be assuming the property is left empty. It isn't. My mother still uses it, just not full time. In your world, what degree of "unoccupation" would you consider acceptable?
In my world, and yours:

12B Higher amount for dwellings occupied periodically: Wales

(1) For any financial year, a billing authority in Wales may by determination provide in relation to its area that if on any day the conditions mentioned in subsection (2) are satisfied in respect of a dwelling—

(a) the discount under section 11(2)(a) does not apply, and
(b) the amount of council tax payable in respect of that dwelling and that day is increased by such percentage of not more than 100 as it may specify in the determination.

(2) The conditions are—

(a) there is no resident of the dwelling, and
(b) the dwelling is substantially furnished.

(3) But a billing authority’s first determination under this section must be made at least one year before the beginning of the financial year to which it relates.


is your mum or anyone else residing in the house? no.

Kind regards, Mac
Last edited by MacadamB53 on Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
MacadamB53
 
Posts: 6059
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby mr sheen » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:12 am

Thanks Mugwump
Perhaps the OP will now apologise then for the offensive and misleading title/statements and his offensive comments.
I'm very surprised that a thread aimed at bashing a section of the UK is considered acceptable on the forum.....especially when the statements are incorrect and nothing more than the perception of someone who has a personal axe to grind.
mr sheen
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby JohnP1950 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:19 pm

mr sheen wrote:Perhaps the OP will now apologise then for the offensive and misleading title/statements and his offensive comments.
I'm very surprised that a thread aimed at bashing a section of the UK is considered acceptable on the forum.....especially when the statements are incorrect and nothing more than the perception of someone who has a personal axe to grind.

I have nothing to apologise for, and I stand by what I have said. The Welsh are charging a higher rate of tax which affects primarily English people. The motivation for this is self-evident - especially given the English-hating racism I have experienced in Wales over the years (coming from Welsh people as diverse as shop staff, builders and health-care "professionals"). My thread is not "aimed at bashing" any any section of the UK. It just points out some injustices. Do you have connections with Wales by any chance?
JohnP1950
 
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:17 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby JohnP1950 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:33 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi John,
You seem to be assuming the property is left empty. It isn't. My mother still uses it, just not full time. In your world, what degree of "unoccupation" would you consider acceptable?
In my world, and yours:

12B Higher amount for dwellings occupied periodically: Wales

(1) For any financial year, a billing authority in Wales may by determination provide in relation to its area that if on any day the conditions mentioned in subsection (2) are satisfied in respect of a dwelling—

(a) the discount under section 11(2)(a) does not apply, and
(b) the amount of council tax payable in respect of that dwelling and that day is increased by such percentage of not more than 100 as it may specify in the determination.

(2) The conditions are—

(a) there is no resident of the dwelling, and
(b) the dwelling is substantially furnished.

(3) But a billing authority’s first determination under this section must be made at least one year before the beginning of the financial year to which it relates.


is your mum or anyone else residing in the house? no.

Kind regards, Mac

Thats's right, the property has to be substantially furnished in order to qualify for this tax.
Nobody is living in the property full time. It is occupied on a part-time basis. It is the only home Mom owns and even though she has to live with me, she regards her bungalow as her own home.

It's not just the nationalistic element of this tax that's so objectionable? It takes no regard of people's income, capital or ability to pay. That is clearly deliberate: the letter Mom had from the LA said explicitly that it is aimed at pressuring people to sell up in order to increase the supply of housing for Welsh people. Those people that are forced to sell up will be the poorest like my Mother, not the rich company execs. with a string of properties (the sort of people that come to mind when one hears the phrase "second home").

And if she did decide to sell up or rent out her home, the property wouldn't go to people living in cardboard boxes as mr sheen seems to think. It would go to someone who could afford it. That would almost certainly be someone with a greater disposable income than my mother has. Oh, and almost certainly someone who is Welsh rather than English.
JohnP1950
 
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:17 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby JohnP1950 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:47 pm

thin and crispy wrote:I read recently that 93% of holiday homes in Wales are owned by English people. If that and JohnP's posts are correct, the tax would seem to be the very definition of racism!

Thanks for the info Thin and Crispy. I didn't realise it was quite that high a percentage. So it is predominantly English people affected by this higher tax then.
JohnP1950
 
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:17 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby Janieb » Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:00 pm

OP, am I right in presuming that your mother is no longer on the electoral roll in Wales?
"I prefer rogues to imbeciles, because they sometimes take a rest" Alexandre Dumas (fils)
Janieb
 
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:44 am

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby COGGY » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:23 pm

You stated that your parents came to live with you "several years ago". You must therefore be no longer young yourself. Surely you must accept that life is not and cannot be fair to all. It is not fair to those living in a war zone, or suffering from a terminal illness. You state you have no time for those who put their parents in a home. My mother owned her own home, she was not rich and had worked hard all her life. We could not possibly have cared for her at home, she was blind in one eye, could not feed herself, could no longer manage her colostomy bag herself, was unable to weight bear and spent the last twenty months of her life in bed with raised sides for her safety. Would you consider that fair? We found the best Care Home available locally, which charged £950 per week. No-one said to her that she need not pay this sum. She owned a property and was expected to pay. Coggy
COGGY
 
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:58 pm

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby Clifford Pope » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:31 pm

There is a simple test for whether the house counts as her "home" or not.

If she sells it, would HMRC accept that it is her "Principal Private Residence" for tax purposes?
That means she lives there most of the time, conducts her affairs from that address, has her bank statements sent there, etc.
Where is she registered to vote?
Where is her GP?
Clifford Pope
 
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:18 pm

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby cleo5 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:34 pm

I agree with johnp1950.
It is his mother's only home and therefore not only should it be regarded as such for council tax purposes but his mother should be in receipt of a council tax reduction due to being the sole person over 80 occupying one dwelling whether it is occupied for two weeks a year or ten months. John's mother only owns one home- hers.
She is not a second home owner.
When going to stay with relatives there is always the chance things will not work out and this lady must have the security of still owning her own home and be able to return there with perhaps a carer.
I speak from experience. One cannot foresee things and old folk once moved from their homes may, later, wish to return.
They should be allowed this option and not forced to sell their homes because of the financial burden of high council tax.

Wales is not yet a separate country yet.

One answer might be to let the house for part of the year as a holiday home. Keep one room locked where personal things are safe, Holiday lets are a safer bet than long term lets.
That way whatever the council tax is would be offset by any monies made.It would still be available for John's mother to use as and when.
As for the question of a dearth of homes for the young families in Wales. This applies everywhere in UK. Cornwall has a huge percentage of holiday homes as all the available properties are higly priced to attract second/third/fourth home buyers. Most are owned by wealthy folk.

Wales seems to have a fair proportion of properties owned by local authorities and housing associations as well as a lot of empty, derelict terraced properties in the valleys.
Yes let the second home owners pay full council tax but not a poor old pensioner whose only home means so much to her.
Charity begins at home.
cleo5
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon May 18, 2015 12:33 pm

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby mugwump » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:34 pm

Just to put everything in perspective.

The enabling legislation is in place, HOWEVER, no council has yet implemented it and some are currently looking at it for implementation in 2017/18 and then not necessarily the full amount

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-35631009

Seven Welsh councils with holiday home hotspots are considering increasing council tax on second homes.

Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire, Anglesey, Conwy, Powys, Carmarthenshire and Gwynedd are exploring new powers to charge up to 100% extra.
mugwump
 
Posts: 431
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby Clifford Pope » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:29 pm

cleo5 wrote:It is his mother's only home .


It is the only house she owns. What constitutes her home is different, and is a matter of fact - where does she live most of the time?

What evidence could she produce that she is living in Wales?
Clifford Pope
 
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:18 pm

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby flower34 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:56 pm

If your mum lives at your house more than the house in wales. She may even have changed her post to come to your house. Then the LA thinks the wales house is mo longer her main residence. I have had this problem for years with an annex i use as part of the house. I have pay 2 council tax bills.

She needs to move back permanently otherwise it is classed as a second home because she stays at yours more. Does any of her post now come to your house?
flower34
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:38 pm

Re: Welsh govt. doubles council tax for English owners

Postby jonahinoz » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:31 am

Hi,

I am quarter Welsh. I have experienced racism when we lived in Wales. My wife was told to go back where she came from ... which was Swansea. "Wales is not for sale!" ... but apparently London is.

But it works the other way, too. There are/were LA's in the South East of England (and maybe elsewhere) who were paying the unemployed tenants of LA houses £20,000 to move out. At that time, you could buy a habitable house in the Swansea Valley for £20,000. But why buy when you can rent, squander the £20,000, then go back onto benefits. The Landlords loved it ... until they evicted uncivilised tenants ... and found their houses had been trashed ... and the tenants had gone back to the South East.

I'm guessing that many of our readers own their own houses. Some will be getting on in years. Try putting yourself in this lady's position. You own your house, probably struggled to pay for it. You paid your taxes, possibly so that benefits could be paid to those who were already better off than you. And then for reasons beyond your control, you are unable to live in your house ... maybe for a few months, or years, maybe forever. You go to live with a member of your family ... which saves the LA and HMG money. Then somebody comes along and demands more money, effectively as a punishment for not being able to live in your own house. What would you do about it? I suggest this lady asks her Welsh LA how much it would cost their rate payers if she moved back into her house, and claimed ALL she was entitled to?

They say that young couples are unable to buy a house in the area where they were brought up. WHEN were they ever able to? WHERE are they able to?

1967. We were given two plane tickets from Singapore to Heathrow, and a month's wages. We were 6 months pregnant, and had been out of the job market for nine years. I was told to report to RAF Lynham in two days time (Friday) for demob. I must be one of a few people who phoned to say I couldn't make it, how about Tuesday? We bought our first house six months later.

2014. Series of family crises, had to move from South Wales to the Midlands. Couldn't sell our house in Wales. Try phoning your bank, tell them you are 75 and want a mortgage. Hold the phone away from your ear in case the laughter deafens you. Our joint pensions are about the equivalent of the average wage for a single person. We sold the house in Wales for £50,000 less than we paid for the house in Kettering. Pillman is aware of other money we have spent. We paid off the Mortgage earlier this year. We have one debt ... my wife's new car, but that is only because two hours haggling resulted in an offer of 0% HP.

Please don't tell me that a young couple, both working, cannot afford a house. But please tell them to be very careful before going for a Shared Ownership. Yes, you move in with a lower deposit, but ask yourself if there is conspiracy to sell you the house for more than it would sell to somebody with the full deposit. I suspect that many new houses are built only to be sold as Shared Ownership.

John W
jonahinoz
 
Posts: 1354
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:15 pm

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
Previous

Return to General Topics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], mugwump and 2 guests