parking

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parking

Postby amboringbutcultural » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:09 pm

We live in a cottage on a lane where in 2007 a small estate was built on the orchard of the cottage on the other side.
This cottage opposite faces down the lane and has a retaining wall alongside the garden.Adjacent to the retaining wall and fence is a long strip of parking area level with the lane and adjoining to the lane itself.
We have always understood that this was for the use of the lane and we and others park on it.
We recently purchased a small motor home/campervan less tan 5m and now a resident on the estate has told us we cannot park there opposite our cottage as there is a covenant applicable to the estate prohibiting such a vehicle in view of any properties on the estate.
The vehicle is not in view of the estate as it is on the lane and the cottage that the orchard used to belong to.
As the parking area is apparently not part of the public highway but a passing bay according to the council when it gave permission for the development.
Can't see the wood for the trees.
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Re: parking

Postby amboringbutcultural » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:47 am

I should add that that is is not hugely visible to the cottage at a right angle opposite to us as the garden drops down to the road but they may see a bit of the roof between a well screened boundary.They have not complained (to us anyway).The neighbour objecting may be able to see a bit of the roof from a dormer in the winter when the trees are not in leaf but only across the garden of the adjacent cottage. If they pursue us and sue I would be amazed if they could prove harm to the value of their property especially as this lane is a highway anyway and not on the estate.
It all seems to boil down to resentment that they cannot park on their properties though they could park on the road like us. Our van BTW is a grey colour and very new so hardly an eyesore.
Can't see the wood for the trees.
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Re: parking

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:00 am

Hi amboringbutcultural,

you don't appear to need any help from the forum - no questions or requests posted - is that correct?

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: parking

Postby amboringbutcultural » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:33 pm

As the parking area/passing place we have used for years has no indication it is private land we have not been aware we were going to be unable to use it for parking though the eviction would be specific to our camper and nothing to do with the covenant as far as we can see.
We could park on the lane itself but with no pavements it would look odd as most vehicles are parked off the road on our side
We have a small drive area but that has a restriction regarding commercial vehicles which I think probably applies to this van although we were intending it to be used to replace our second car not just occasional W/Es away.
it's been a sorry tale right from taking it for a test drive when my OH shut my hand in the driver's door by accident when i was climbing in! I 've had a previous hip replacement so struggle a bit and was the wrong side to use the step at the time.
The estate was built in 1997 not 2007, my error.
I was asking if this estate can impose a restriction just because of the type of vehicle?
Can't see the wood for the trees.
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Re: parking

Postby Collaborate » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:01 pm

A covenant will only bind the estate that agrees to be bound. If you have a right to park in the layby (and there may or may not be such a right), you will be bound by any covenants that bound the land at the time the right accrued to you.
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Re: parking

Postby amboringbutcultural » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:14 pm

How are we bound? He says he is bound as we are breaking his covenant.
Our predecessor stated on a form we can park opposite.
There is nothing to indicate that the passing area is private and it has always been used for parking as far as we know since the estate on a road off our lane was built.
The objector states their covenant says that no caravan, trailer commercial vehicle be parked on the development or the property other than in a garage or otherwise out of sight of other properties on the development.
This is the lane not the development where all sorts of other vehicles park daily though there is not a parking shortage and we are mostly the only people parking.
If he can see the top of the van dependent on where it is parked on the strip from his loft dormer window in the distance over the garden of the cottage opposite then this appears to be his angst. How this would affect the value of his property is a mystery.
This strip of land on his deeds has been used for parking by all and cannot be fenced or used for any other purpose and is disparate from his property as it is on the lane.
It beggars belief that it affects his life at all.
We are not remotely happy on getting into some protracted stand off but feel that this may merely be an abuse of power/ bullying on his part. Developments are only usually given permission if they contribute to the area and this one was built off a narrow lane so a visability splay was no doubt part of the reason for the strips either side of the private road to the estate.
Can't see the wood for the trees.
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Re: parking

Postby jonahinoz » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:58 pm

Hi ABBC,

Was your house built by the same developer that built the estate. It is usually the developer that imposes covenants, so that the estate does not become "run down" before he has sold the last house.

You Land Register should tell you if there are any covenants affecting your house. It may, or may not, tell you what those covenants are.

You are not bound by covenants on other people's properties, though they might like you to be. They accepted the covenants when they bought their houses, nobody forced them.

John W
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Re: parking

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:31 pm

Hi amboringbutcultural,

The objector states their covenant says that no caravan, trailer commercial vehicle be parked on the development or the property other than in a garage or otherwise out of sight of other properties on the development.

speculating here, because we've not seen any of the real details, but I think the above covenant is restricting the owner of the objector's property and has nothing to do with you.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: parking

Postby amboringbutcultural » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:28 pm

The estate was built off our lane on land of the cottage opposite that was originally an orchard in 1997.
Our house is part 17th century extended at least twice at the back and the cottage opposite that had developed/sold the orchard,is probably Victorian.
We guess the owner of the site did not want the responsibility/liability of the strip adjacent to the retaining wall the length of their garden which lies at a right angle to the lane and also lies adjacent to the lane so instead the house of the objector sitting behind them of this 20 yr old development seem to have it on their deeds.
This and another strip the other side of their private road opening onto our lane also provide visability splays and are labelled as a passing bay by the council.

As far as we are aware these strips have always been used since the estate was built by anyone as parking and turning areas and are often we find only in use by us. All the 4 detached houses of the new estate, off our lane and which lies higher than our lane have garages and parking for at least two cars and the 2 at the rear back onto open farmland/ fields.
The covenant claim seems to be an excuse to cover the real fact they are annoyed if we think we can park a campervan opposite our house when they apparently cannot park similar on their drives.
If we do not remove it then I guess they may say we are trespassing on their land. It seems difficult to see how they could stop us as the land is unfencable and begs the question would they just ban us but not others or now ban our car as well?
It is also feasible that there may be a claim for a prescriptive easement now the areas have been used for 20 years but I have no idea how to ascertain that. We do have many neighbours who have been in the road all their lives however.
What's awful is the bad feeling this has led to. We have been taken totally by surprise, we don't know this objector at all as he lives in the estate and not on the lane.

We can't win even if we stand our ground as it has caused such upset to me and my family. He bought round his letter on my birthday as it happened and my son felt he was in his view, gagging for a fight.
Can't see the wood for the trees.
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Re: parking

Postby ukmicky » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:00 am

amboringbutcultural

You are free to park there for 3 reasons.



1. There is a legal principle called notice. Only those who it can be said have who have had legal notice of the covenant can be burdened by it. Verbally telling you about the covenant is not classed as legal notice. Only those who own the land burdened by it can have legal notice of it. Your land is not part of the estate so you cant be sued for breech of the covenant .

2. You have no privity of contract. By law a contract (Covenant) cannot impose obligations onto a third party ,someone who has not signed on the doted line agreeing to its conditions.

3. If you were to park on his neighbours drive you still couldn't be sued ,they would have to sue the landowner who allowed you to park ,as it would be the landowner who would be in breach not you.

Lastly if this lane is now highway the covenant would no longer be enforceable against anyone.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
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Re: parking

Postby Collaborate » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:57 am

ukmicky wrote:amboringbutcultural

You are free to park there for 3 reasons.



1. There is a legal principle called notice. Only those who it can be said have who have had legal notice of the covenant can be burdened by it. Verbally telling you about the covenant is not classed as legal notice. Only those who own the land burdened by it can have legal notice of it. Your land is not part of the estate so you cant be sued for breech of the covenant .

2. You have no privity of contract. By law a contract (Covenant) cannot impose obligations onto a third party ,someone who has not signed on the doted line agreeing to its conditions.

3. If you were to park on his neighbours drive you still couldn't be sued ,they would have to sue the landowner who allowed you to park ,as it would be the landowner who would be in breach not you.

Lastly if this lane is now highway the covenant would no longer be enforceable against anyone.


1. This makes no sense. Notice is a word, not a legal principle, and what you imply will certainly not apply in relation to land. Either OP is bound by it or he is not, whether or not he has notice of it.
2. If X binds the land, no third party can then acquire an interest over that land that is not subject to X. If the 3rd party interest accrued before the landowner agreed to be bound by X then the 3rd party cannot be bound.
3. Subject to the RC being created before OP gained a right to park (if one exists), OP can be sued. Probably directly, but if that's not possible the complainer would sue the landowner who would join in OP to the proceedings as a codefendant.
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Re: parking

Postby amboringbutcultural » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:58 am

He's claiming that he is breaching the covenant if we park a camper van on the strip/passing area as that strip along our lane is on his deeds. His neighbours, he claims, could complain that he is breaking the covenant though how parking on the lane that we live on, visually disparate from the right hand turn up into his estate could affect his neighbours or the value of any houses on that estate is ridiculous.
It seems an anomaly that the council did not adopt these strips but they didn't so this objector is wielding his grist that the strip of land is on his deeds but in reality he has no control over it.
We have no indication on our searches of any restriction using the road or that area adjacent and our predecessor stated we could as anyone else park there, as has been the case since we moved here 3 years ago.
It does look to fit the criteria of a prescriptive easement but we do not want to take on a legal battle but neither do we hold out any hope that this objector will with time be reasonable. Other silly disputes in this village we have been aware of seem to indicate it is now the new 'sport' of bored retirees!
Can't see the wood for the trees.
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Re: parking

Postby arborlad » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:39 am

amboringbutcultural wrote:He's claiming that he is breaching the covenant if we park a camper van on the strip/passing area as that strip along our lane is on his deeds.




That's an odd setup, do you mean they own it or is it referenced with regards to covenants?
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
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Re: parking

Postby jonahinoz » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:39 am

That's an odd setup, do you mean they own it or is it referenced with regards to covenants?

Hi,

My thoughts too ... is this a new ball-game?

ABBC seems to be saying that the estate dweller is breaking the estate covenant by allowing ABBC to park on the passing strip, which is is owned by said Estate Dweller. IS this land owned by Estate Dweller?

Can a covenant be forced on a covenanter who has no control over what he has covenanted? There must be a better way of phrasing that?

The police will insist that the highway extends to the fence, hedge, wall, or whatever.

John W
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Re: parking

Postby ukmicky » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:22 am

This makes no sense. Notice is a word, not a legal principle, and what you imply will certainly not apply in relation to land. Either OP is bound by it or he is not, whether or not he has notice of it.



OK lets put this another way.

A legal principle is a set of rules or test .

Part of the test set out through common law to decide if a restrictive covenant binds the purchaser of land is the doctrine of notice.


The basic test for a restrictive covenant to bind the purchaser of land is.

The covenant must be intended to run with the covenantor's land.
The burden cannot be a positive in nature
The purchaser must have notice of the covenant.
The covenant must benefit the covenantee's land

Back to the subject, the OP is not bound by the covenant as the covenant binds their neighbours land not theirs.

If it is part of the highway any restrictive covenants relating to the area are also basically suspended ,so speak to your highways department to find out what they determine this piece of land is .
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
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