Can I charge electricity?

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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby Collaborate » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:56 am

arborlad wrote:
Collaborate wrote:Electricity doesn't come under repair, maintenance or renewal. It's an operating cost.




I fail to see your logic on this one, you seem to have invented a word to somehow exclude a cost from the 'total annual cost' that should so obviously be included.


Yes, because no one's ever used the word "operating" before.

Maintenance costs relate to either correcting problems after they occur or preventing them occurring in the first place.

Operating costs relate to making the thing work.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/operating
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/operating+cost
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/maintenance - see esp "The work of keeping something in proper condition; upkeep: car maintenance."

So, to use the analogy of a car, fuel in the tank is an operating cost, but oil in the engine is a maintenance cost.

With a sewage system the cost of moving the crap around and treating the waste is an operating cost. The cost of keeping the machine in working order is a maintenance cost.

You are also quoting "total annual cost" out of context. The full wording is "a fair share according to usage of the total annual cost of repair maintenance and renewal of the shared sewerage system."
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby arborlad » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:05 am

Collaborate wrote:So, to use the analogy of a car, fuel in the tank is an operating cost, but oil in the engine is a maintenance cost.




So, to get to the annual cost of running your car, which one do you exclude - the fuel or oil?
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby Collaborate » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:26 am

arborlad wrote:
Collaborate wrote:So, to use the analogy of a car, fuel in the tank is an operating cost, but oil in the engine is a maintenance cost.




So, to get to the annual cost of running your car, which one do you exclude - the fuel or oil?


The annual running costs include operating and maintenance costs. It also includes depreciation.

But I must have missed where in OP's deeds it says the neighbour has to pay towards the annual running costs. Could you point that out to me?
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:43 am

Hi Confusedisme,

does having them connected mean your sewage plant pump uses more electricity than if they weren’t? or does the pump operate the same regardless?

kind regards, Mac
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby arborlad » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:11 am

Collaborate wrote:The annual running costs include operating and maintenance costs.




............as it does for the OP.
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby Collaborate » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:16 am

arborlad wrote:
Collaborate wrote:The annual running costs include operating and maintenance costs.




............as it does for the OP.


But OP's deeds do not entitle them to claim for "running" costs - just repair, maintenance and renewal costs.

Look, to prevent me repeating this does anyone know any way in which I can put this on a perpetual loop in response to arborlad ?

Or am I inhabiting a parallel universe?
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby arborlad » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:13 pm

Confusedisme wrote:I have never charged my neighbours the cost of electricity for the small air pump which runs the plant, and wondered whether the wording in the transfer document would allow me to do so as I have never done so but the neighbours are moving and I don't see why I should continue to pay this without some help towards it.




I share your view that you should be getting some help towards the cost of the electricity.

You obviously can't do anything retrospectively, but I would go to the current neighbour and explain that it was an oversight on your behalf and he really should have been contributing to the cost of the electricity from the day the plant was first commissioned and if he could explain to any prospective purchasers that this is what you will expect to happen if they purchase................his response could be anything from, 'of course, I wonder why you haven't mentioned it earlier', to, 'no way, I aint paying that.'
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby ukmicky » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:20 am

Collaborate wrote:
ukmicky wrote:
One of those rules is for it to legally exist as an easement the dominant tenements use must be at no cost to the servient tenement.



Is there any authority to back that up?



Got back home today so as requested.

Regis v Redman

https://webstroke.co.uk/law/cases/regis ... edman-1956

There only exception to the rule under Regis v Redman which comes from the ruling in Crow vs Wood for fencing easements, if the circumstances are right. But the court described a fencing easement as being something that was not really something that could be described as an easement. .
The above https://webstroke.co.uk/law/cases/crow-v-wood-1970

I think above is enough . The neighbour has no choice and must pay for his share of the electricity charges if he wishes to use the treatment plant.
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby Collaborate » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:28 am

ukmicky wrote:
Collaborate wrote:
ukmicky wrote:
One of those rules is for it to legally exist as an easement the dominant tenements use must be at no cost to the servient tenement.



Is there any authority to back that up?



Got back home today so as requested.

Regis v Redman

https://webstroke.co.uk/law/cases/regis ... edman-1956

There only exception to the rule under Regis v Redman which comes from the ruling in Crow vs Wood for fencing easements, if the circumstances are right. But the court described a fencing easement as being something that was not really something that could be described as an easement. .
The above https://webstroke.co.uk/law/cases/crow-v-wood-1970

I think above is enough . The neighbour has no choice and must pay for his share of the electricity charges if he wishes to use the treatment plant.


I see where you're coming from, but would like to see a full copy of the judgment as a rule that says the servient tenement cannot be forced to spend money is not the same as one saying that they can insist on reimbursement. Take as an example a ROW. As we all know, either servient or dominant owner can repair, but neither can force the other to contribute. Yet failure of the other to contribute does not mean they cannot continue to use the ROW.

Perhaps the answer for OP, if the tank ever needs rebuilding, is that they stop the supply to the old tank and watch it build up, thereby rendering it unusable.

Tried to find a copy of the judgment online without success, but did come across this old discussion on this site viewtopic.php?p=118942

No one can add to that discussion without having a full copy of all relevant decisions. The Regis case should give food for thought to OP. If I were OP I'd be sounding out a lawyer who knows their stuff for a proper advice. However the cost of that ought to be balanced against the cost of powering the apparatus and falling out with the neighbour on the one hand, and the possibility that the easement may not have survived the purchase of the property by OP, in which case what are the chances that the neighbour can be stopped from using the system? If the usage has been "as of right" over the last 20 years a new easement may have arisen by operation of law.
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby ukmicky » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:22 pm

I have read it so it is out there.


There is however no real need for anyone to read it because it’s not something that depends on a situation or the wording of a deed. It’s a basic rule of easements that it must be at no expense to the servient owner. Everyone who knows the law on easements knows that.
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby MacadamB53 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:14 pm

ukmicky wrote:I have read it so it is out there.


There is however no real need for anyone to read it because it’s not something that depends on a situation or the wording of a deed. It’s a basic rule of easements that it must be at no expense to the servient owner. Everyone who knows the law on easements knows that.
which means a dominant owner can make use of an easement so long as this doesn’t rack up a bill for the servient owner - it does not mean the dominant owner must contribute to expenditure that would be incurred whether he used the easement or not...

...if the running of the OP’s pump costs the same no matter how many users are connected then the “basic rule” is not relevant.

I’ve asked the OP to clarify on this point...

kind regards, Mac
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby ukmicky » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:37 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
ukmicky wrote:I have read it so it is out there.


There is however no real need for anyone to read it because it’s not something that depends on a situation or the wording of a deed. It’s a basic rule of easements that it must be at no expense to the servient owner. Everyone who knows the law on easements knows that.
which means a dominant owner can make use of an easement so long as this doesn’t rack up a bill for the servient owner - it does not mean the dominant owner must contribute to expenditure that would be incurred whether he used the easement or not...

...if the running of the OP’s pump costs the same no matter how many users are connected then the “basic rule” is not relevant.

I’ve asked the OP to clarify on this point...

kind regards, Mac
And if you were the servient owner you would stand up in court and say . Even if no extra electricity is used due to the dominants tenements use , the dominant tenement is automatically benefiting from the use of the electricity and therefore is liable for a share. The dominant tenement requires the system to be turned on all the time for them to benefit from the easement and therefore are always liable.
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby Collaborate » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:52 am

ukmicky wrote:I have read it so it is out there.


There is however no real need for anyone to read it because it’s not something that depends on a situation or the wording of a deed. It’s a basic rule of easements that it must be at no expense to the servient owner. Everyone who knows the law on easements knows that.


You're reading too much in to the rule. A rule saying a servient owner cannot be forced to spend money is not the same as one enabling the servient owner to recover money spent.That is why anyone would need to see the whole judgment before they can comment further. Can you recall where you found it?
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby ukmicky » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:03 pm

It’s a blanket rule ,so I’m not reading to much into it.
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Re: Can I charge electricity?

Postby Collaborate » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:48 pm

Yet the only authorities you've come up with involve mention of a rule that says an easement cannot compel the servient owner to spend money.

You are wrong to then say this rule must apply to OP's situation. How can a rule that says a servient owner cannot be forced to spend money automatically give the servient owner the right to recover any sum they choose to spend from the dominant owner?

We know that if either dominant owner or servient owner of a ROW chooses to maintain the ROW they cannot recover anything from the other unless the deeds provide for it. Why should that be any different for OP?

Regis Property Co Ltd v Redman [1956]

Amongst other issues, it was found that easements could not require expenditure by the servient land owner. As a result, an easement to provide hot water was not recognisable.

Crow v Wood [1970]

Facts

A landowner let out his farmland to several different farmers
The tenancy agreements provided for the keeping of sheep, but required that boundary fences were maintained
One of the farms was sold
Issue

Could an obligation to keep fences in good repair be turned into an easement upon the sale of the farm by virtue of s 62 of the Law of Property Act 1925?
Decision

Yes
Reasoning

Although it is a general how to buy cheap xanax online rule that easement cannot require a servient landowner to spend money in order to comply, maintaining boundary fences constituted an exception, recognised in the general nature of rights which may constitute easements
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