Neighbours Tree Roots (Listed Tree) are lifting our patio

Neighbours Tree Roots (Listed Tree) are lifting our patio

Postby Mikebassett45 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:20 pm

I am seeking some advice and guidance. Our neighbours (who are not easy to deal with) have a very large Wellingtonia tree in their garden which has a Protection Order on it.

The roots are now lifting some of the paving slabs on our patio and are very near the rear wall of our bungalow

Should we raise this matter first with the local council officer who deals with trees and ask him to come out and see the problem before mentioning it to our neighbour? She has said in the past that there is nothing she can do as the tree as TPO on it

We think that the roots need to be cut back and some sort of root barrier installed to prevent damage to our foundations but we have limited knowledge on this subject

And help or advice on the best way to proceed would be very much appreciated

P.S. - I did try to contact Alan Harris who is mentioned on this site as a root expert - does anyone have any upto date contact details for him?
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Re: Neighbours Tree Roots (Listed Tree) are lifting our pati

Postby arsie » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:00 pm

Hi

Some idea of sizes will be needed - height of the tree and distance from your foundations - by the experts (which I am not!) But I recently built near a mature sycamore and deciduous hedge containing hazel, with repercussions on the size of my foundations. The soil engineer, building inspector and NHBC were all familiar with trees, heights and distances. Norfolk hereabouts is basically clay. Wellingtonia can be 90m high :shock:

Alan Harris may be contactable via LinkedIn or via his posts on this forum but bear in mind if it has been some time since he contributed his email address may no longer be in use - we all move on.

Hope that helps.
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Re: Neighbours Tree Roots (Listed Tree) are lifting our pati

Postby Treeman » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:20 am

arsie wrote:Hi

Some idea of sizes will be needed - height of the tree and distance from your foundations- by the experts (which I am not!) But I recently built near a mature sycamore and deciduous hedge containing hazel, with repercussions on the size of my foundations. The soil engineer, building inspector and NHBC were all familiar with trees, heights and distances. Norfolk hereabouts is basically clay. Wellingtonia can be 90m high :shock:

Alan Harris may be contactable via LinkedIn or via his posts on this forum but bear in mind if it has been some time since he contributed his email address may no longer be in use - we all move on.

Hope that helps.



Why do you think that's important?
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Re: Neighbours Tree Roots (Listed Tree) are lifting our pati

Postby Treeman » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:32 am

Mikebassett45 wrote:I am seeking some advice and guidance. Our neighbours (who are not easy to deal with) have a very large Wellingtonia tree in their garden which has a Protection Order on it.

The roots are now lifting some of the paving slabs on our patio and are very near the rear wall of our bungalow

Should we raise this matter first with the local council officer who deals with trees and ask him to come out and see the problem before mentioning it to our neighbour? She has said in the past that there is nothing she can do as the tree as TPO on it

We think that the roots need to be cut back and some sort of root barrier installed to prevent damage to our foundations but we have limited knowledge on this subject

And help or advice on the best way to proceed would be very much appreciated

P.S. - I did try to contact Alan Harris who is mentioned on this site as a root expert - does anyone have any upto date contact details for him?



All parts of the tree are protected so anything you do will need to involve the tree officer.

The damage to the paving can be easily addressed, pre-emptive root cutting is less likely to gain consent. An application for that would need to be supported by expert opinion.

Allan Harris used the forum to trawl for work, he has not been doing that for some time, perhaps he is busy with other things.
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Re: Neighbours Tree Roots (Listed Tree) are lifting our pati

Postby arsie » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:20 am

arsie wrote:Hi

Some idea of sizes will be needed - height of the tree and distance from your foundations - by the experts (which I am not!) But I recently built near a mature sycamore and deciduous hedge containing hazel, with repercussions on the size of my foundations. The soil engineer, building inspector and NHBC were all familiar with trees, heights and distances. Norfolk hereabouts is basically clay. Wellingtonia can be 90m high :shock:

Alan Harris may be contactable via LinkedIn or via his posts on this forum but bear in mind if it has been some time since he contributed his email address may no longer be in use - we all move on.

Hope that helps.


Treeman wrote:Why do you think that's important?


What I am guessing you question is in blue and the answer is in red ,

As well as the species, size and 'safe' distances, the experts were fully aware of the related root spread. All their discussions revolved around sizes and I had to dig and fill deeper foundations for the affected walls. While the effect on cubic metres of concrete underground may not be the same as on a patio the cause is the same, the spreading root systems of trees, which can cause subsidence or heave depending on the type of soil.

The OPs problem is perhaps better addressed by tree experts like yourself. Of course all experts cost money :roll:
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Re: Neighbours Tree Roots (Listed Tree) are lifting our pati

Postby Treeman » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:53 pm

arsie wrote:
arsie wrote:Hi

Some idea of sizes will be needed - height of the tree and distance from your foundations - by the experts (which I am not!) But I recently built near a mature sycamore and deciduous hedge containing hazel, with repercussions on the size of my foundations. The soil engineer, building inspector and NHBC were all familiar with trees, heights and distances. Norfolk hereabouts is basically clay. Wellingtonia can be 90m high :shock:

Alan Harris may be contactable via LinkedIn or via his posts on this forum but bear in mind if it has been some time since he contributed his email address may no longer be in use - we all move on.

Hope that helps.


Treeman wrote:Why do you think that's important?


What I am guessing you question is in blue and the answer is in red ,

As well as the species, size and 'safe' distances, the experts were fully aware of the related root spread. All their discussions revolved around sizes and I had to dig and fill deeper foundations for the affected walls. While the effect on cubic metres of concrete underground may not be the same as on a patio the cause is the same, the spreading root systems of trees, which can cause subsidence or heave depending on the type of soil.

The OPs problem is perhaps better addressed by tree experts like yourself. Of course all experts cost money :roll:



With respect the answer isn't in red particularly what pertains to the NHBC stuff. NHBC is for building near trees not trees growing near buildings.

Its also not possible to accurately predict root spread particularly in the built environment
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Re: Neighbours Tree Roots (Listed Tree) are lifting our pati

Postby arsie » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:05 pm

Treeman wrote:With respect the answer in red isn't particularly what pertains to the NHBC stuff. NHBC is for building near trees not trees growing near buildings.

Its also not possible to accurately predict root spread particularly in the built environment

So you say.

But 'building near trees not trees near buildings' escapes me as to the a fine distinction? :?:

Also, not possible to accurately predict etc. So?

Please explain :)
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Re: Neighbours Tree Roots (Listed Tree) are lifting our pati

Postby Treeman » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:48 pm

arsie wrote:
Treeman wrote:With respect the answer in red isn't particularly what pertains to the NHBC stuff. NHBC is for building near trees not trees growing near buildings.

Its also not possible to accurately predict root spread particularly in the built environment

So you say.

But 'building near trees not trees near buildings' escapes me as to the a fine distinction? :?:

Also, not possible to accurately predict etc. So?

Please explain :)



Ok, the NHBC stuff is bunk, its based on the only data available which came from an appendix to the Kew root survey.

The authors (Cutler and Richardson) went on record to say that the data set was statistically flawed and unreliable.

The insurance companies and NHBC used it anyway to provide guidance on foundation depths in proximity to trees.

The not possible to predict thing is just fact, unless they have xray glasses.
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Re: Neighbours Tree Roots (Listed Tree) are lifting our pati

Postby tinker62 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:04 am

Just as a matter of interest how would someone stand legally if on moving to a new property,decided that a sycamore tree just in a neighbours' garden over hung his property considerably,and cut all the offending branches and roots back and then found out there was a TPO involved
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Re: Neighbours Tree Roots (Listed Tree) are lifting our pati

Postby Whomping Willow » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:22 pm

"NHBC is for building near trees not trees growing near buildings"

NHBC Chapter 4.2 is for the design of foundations near trees; it doesn't provide advice on how trees should or can be managed.

The tree roots are causing a nuisance if the patio is being listed. The tree owner becomes liable for the additional cost of repair once told of the problem; the Council has potential liability for loss and/or damage once a TPO application is refused - so you need to speak to both. The tree officer may only respond to a formal application (depending on work load) and may require reports of various sorts.

Whether the tree roots have the potential to affect your property will depend on whether your house is on (shrinkable) clay soil, or not. If not there is much less chance of movement and therefore subsidence.
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