Put the tape measure away

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby czar » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:26 pm

Hi Conveyance

I have a thread going on in the rights of way forum and might ask you interjection on the boundary quandary which is only a part of the discussion.

http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19223&p=172399#p172399

In relation to your point number 4 on page 1 of this thread
4. Legal boundaries can move over time, so there is a possibility that the fence is in the right place simply because by having been where it is for long enough it has come to represent the boundary"
is there a time frame around this or could it be determined through the transfer of the property, IE I bought the house and the fence was there when we had the land conveyed thus the presumption is I bought the land incumbent? or am I being presumptuous? Our fact is the fence has been there 20 + years and a gate on the line even longer.

thanks
czar
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:37 am

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby detailme » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:34 pm

All very interesting reading
detailme
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:51 pm

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby helpthedonkeysabroad » Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:44 pm

Hello again,

In 1921 our land was divided into three parcels, it seems so sensible that they measured out with plans and sold the first parcel, telling them to fence the boundary, that became the legal boundary one would think sensible too. The second parcel was then measured from the fence down to the road, and then the third parcel which then had a joint boundary with the other two, and so all the three parcels had one joint boundary!!! As they all contained about 12 plots within and again all measured and all fitted like a jigsaw, then how did our adjoining parcel claim a huge strip from our side 90 years later????? And the judge allowed it to happen even though they had admitted it was not their land but wanted to extend their building site!!!! To me it means that 90 yrs ago before all the new inventions, and using a pen and ruler and common sense they were so superior to the practices now!
It is time that all properties were clearly measured, marked photographed and signed and accepted by every other adjoin plot BEFORE they are put up for sale!
helpthedonkeysabroad
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:06 pm

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby helpthedonkeysabroad » Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:56 pm

Hello,

In our case, and I appreciate that all are different, we had a covenant to plant hedges (that grew into huge super trees over the years) and to maintain and our successors thereafter. The first plot was at the top of a huge hill and we sloped down, so sensible to plant for privacy etc. It also gave privacy, security and shelter for birds an da wildlife corridor as the Pl INspectors called it------ a green lung!
We had to plant hedges within 6 months, and could only plant them inside their fence obviously, I think they would have noticed if we had been climbing over them with shovels and saplings along a 400ft strip without permission so trespassing anyway! NB That first plot was bought by a riding and livery school, so if you knew horses as well as I do, you would know that they would have been gobbled up very quickly! IN country areas, hedges were planted 3-4 ft at least away from the boundary to allow for growth and access, and why there is a mixture of trees as some are more tasty than others!
I do realise what you mean though! All the more reason for the public to take more notice of their boundaries and what is agreed rather than the colour of the wallpaper or the scruffy bathroom! YOu rarely hear the boundaries even mentioned!
helpthedonkeysabroad
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:06 pm

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby arsie » Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:09 pm

donkey
you really should start your own thread or threads. What you say has nothing to do with this topic which was done and over?
arsie
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby SarahSue » Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:31 am

What an interesting thread! A lot to digest but such useful information.

I was freaking out a bit because it appeared that my NFH neighbours may have owned part of my front garden since if the boundary was to be measured as I have read it should be measured - between the two front windows of the town house - the boundary was not where I assumed it to be. Common sense would dictate the boundary is on the edge of my garden, where my garden ends and their driveway begins, as has always been the case since the house was built in the early 70s. Every single house in the street seems to have a dividing line which doesn't match up with the house boundary. How can the house boundary be different from the garden boundary? What I am getting from this is that it doesn't matter and no one would be able to prove anything or put forward a case because it is all too vague.

My sister is a structural engineer, deals in numbers. She was insistent the neighbour owned part of our front garden and she was forming her opinion just from looking at the LR and not being on the ground and seeing what was set out.
SarahSue
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:44 am

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby Conveyancer » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:00 pm

sorra wrote:What an interesting thread! A lot to digest but such useful information.


All my threads are more interesting than anything on QI.
If you have benefited from advice on this site please consider contributing to a cancer charity.
Conveyancer
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:19 pm
Location: Andalucía

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby gamesmanship » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:34 pm

The land registry title deed plans do not have measurements and I understand cannot be used for boundary disputes but as a guide only. LR. Information is taken at the time from historic title deed plans at first registration. Should a claim be made that the registration title deeds are incorrect the mistake is not that of the Land Registry but on the registration of documents being supplied at first registration. The Land Registry will not correct except by a Court order or by the Land Tribunal. Either party may choose a Court decision in which case the LT will not be involved in the case decision while it is referred to a Court.
The LR will request the problem party to go back to the original conveyance to correct the faulty plan/deed that was not included in first registration.
A Company no longer in existence that owned land is no longer registered. The unregistered land being a small strip, Crown Land would not consider it of any value. How to prevent on private land the used as a footpath as shown on an early ordinance survey map being use to drive vehicles over of which it was never its intended use. ?
gamesmanship
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:50 pm

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby Mollie90123 » Fri May 13, 2016 9:03 am

I agree in this day and age we want our plans to be more accurate. We have the technology!

Regarding The Post 'A plan showing figured dimensions and insufficient fixed points'


Can anyone in conveyancing tell me what you should be able to do if you think your measurements on the Plan are incorrect and the Boundaries are not clear?

My Conveyancing Solicitor has advised me to Resile if I am unhappy at the Plan (long story I had to conclude before they would give me any measurements or Plan)
She says the costs for solicitor letters to sort it out would be costly. I am unhappy at this as I thought the Conveyancer should make sure the seller gave a Plan that was clear without having to make costly arguments.

My Plan has
Semidetached Bungalow in a near rectangle plot. All the street are same. Miners row, semidetached with very, very slims driveways along the side of each house.
Front is 11.050 m Back is 10.900 m

So somewhere along side one or both of the boundaries does not run parallel. You would assume the median party wall line to be a fixed line that at least starts from the median line.

But, it is a council house purchase. A 'Revised Right To Buy' so no large discount and margins are tight. Up here the council interpret the 'You buy what you use as a Tenant Rule'. So they use fences or structures to measure from and to, not the median party wall line. The measurements are usually taken by unqualified staff. There has been cases where part of a house now sits on next doors garden.

I asked a qualified surveyor to make a Plan of what I was using but using the median line. So I have an accurate Plan as a start point. Incidentally, the qualified surveyor's plan give me a few cms less at one point in the driveway as he measured the line warts and all. (I asked him to measure what I was using) But at least I have a fixed line to base measurements on.

regards
Mollie
Mollie90123
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:24 am

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby Collaborate » Fri May 13, 2016 10:28 am

So, there is a 15 cm difference between the width at both extremes, and you think it's an issue?

I hope you're paying your conveyancing solicitor by the hour for this.

The "issue" may mean you have too much land, or too little. It could mean a 75mm difference in each side.

Over, say, a 50m length, that 15cm means that someone erected a fence pretty well in a straight line.

I've actually taken the trouble to calculate how much off a 90 degree perpendicular line this fence is. It is, assuming from the front boundary of your house to the back is 50m, 89.83 degrees.

Waste your money if you want, but I really don't see that you have a problem here, other than with your expectations.
Collaborate
 
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:17 am

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby Mollie90123 » Fri May 13, 2016 11:19 am

Collaborate wrote:So, there is a 15 cm difference between the width at both extremes, and you think it's an issue?

I hope you're paying your conveyancing solicitor by the hour for this.

The "issue" may mean you have too much land, or too little. It could mean a 75mm difference in each side.

Over, say, a 50m length, that 15cm means that someone erected a fence pretty well in a straight line.

I've actually taken the trouble to calculate how much off a 90 degree perpendicular line this fence is. It is, assuming from the front boundary of your house to the back is 50m, 89.83 degrees.

Waste your money if you want, but I really don't see that you have a problem here, other than with your expectations.


50m length I wish! It is a small house 8.22m x 8.40m so plans for garage and proposed extension are tight The Boundary length from front to back 34m. There is another issue the Surveyor says Council don't actually own 0.5m of this length as it is the only private property that has registered ie along the rear of the boundary of the line of houses and I will have problems registering it.

But you are correct 75mm but where? Can you be sure it is both sides and not on one side?

The drive is only 2.90m inc low retaining wall and steps into side entrance. So if just drive side then yes it will affect the drive and the ability to erect garage etc. If it is at the median party wall it would look odd and an issue with gutter but acceptable. I just need someone to say where this difference lies before I start garage and extension. If I have to argue at that time it will be expensive.

Maybe I am naive but my expectations should be that the plan correctly identify what I am buying. This is first registration and it would be good to get it correct.
I asked my conveyancing solicitor not to do any work until I can clarify the boundaries. But you are correct it is still expensive and time consuming.

Re size - as the saying goes To a woman, it matters
Mollie90123
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:24 am

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby Collaborate » Fri May 13, 2016 11:45 am

Your expectations re way beyond anything that might be described as merely picky.

With a 34m distance front to back the angle is 89.75 degrees. So whoever put the fence up was a whole 0.25 degrees off from the true line.

I sincerely hope for your sake this isn't a reflection on the standards you expect in other parts of your life.

Do you realise that no plan drawn to an acceptable scale is going to be able to be accurate to within less than 0.25 degrees? That is the whole point of this thread. Perhaps you ought to read it through again.
Collaborate
 
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:17 am

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby Mollie90123 » Fri May 13, 2016 2:19 pm

Hi

Myself, and the neighbours think the fences are fine and the measurements are ok. An independent surveyor measured where the party wall was and I followed that.

It is the council that say I have moved the 'a fence' in a NE direction. Therefore breaking my tenancy agreement.
It's complicated. It didn't follow the party wall line before and I moved it. There is nothing in the tenancy agreement.

Without going into too much detail, as it is time consuming. I can accept the plan and the measurements but I need to know the 'anchor points' of each corner on the plot and where on the house the council say the fence should 'attach' if they are not using the median line.

Also, you cannot assume that the line on the semidetached side runs in a line through the house front to back. I have been told that where it 'attaches' on the front does not correspond ie in a line where it attaches at the back.
This really confuses me!

I live in a near hobbit size house. So boundaries, measurements, guttering and drains will be very important. My guess is the council planning dept will make sure that there is not the odd deviation here or there for any planned garage or extension.

Am I being too 'picky' for wanting to know where my boundaries are?
Also, if I go to Register the Title and I can't due to conflict with the rear boundary owner who is responsible for the cost?

regards
Mollie90123
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:24 am

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby arborlad » Fri May 13, 2016 2:38 pm

Mollie90123 wrote:Also, you cannot assume that the line on the semidetached side runs in a line through the house front to back. I have been told that where it 'attaches' on the front does not correspond ie in a line where it attaches at the back.
This really confuses me!



If you take your average semi as an example, with the inner party wall running North-South.

A will be the most Northerly part of the boundary.

B will be the centre of the party wall at the rear.

C will be the centre of the party wall at the front.

D will be the most Southerly part of your land - usually where it abuts the highway.

A-B, B-C, C-D, will all be a series of straight lines - hardly ever will A-D be a straight line.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
arborlad
 
Posts: 7385
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Put the tape measure away

Postby Collaborate » Fri May 13, 2016 2:40 pm

Mollie90123 wrote:Am I being too 'picky' for wanting to know where my boundaries are?


Yes - when the deviation is 0.25 of a degree.

Your boundaries are as they appear in physical form on the ground. The plan gives you a general guide only. You will know this if you've paid attention to this thread.
Collaborate
 
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:17 am

Ads are not endorsed by www.gardenlaw.co.uk or the staff thereof and visitors should perform their own due diligence on the product or service offered.
 
PreviousNext

Return to Boundaries

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests