Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby despair » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:55 pm

Thin and crispy

I do not in any way condone unreasonable behaviour and i agree we need to know the full story behind this

However for any neighbour to knowingly create a serious problem accessing a drive on a very busy road seems totally unreasonable from many angles

Even on a quiet road it could prove very difficult especially if the dropped kerb favours the other neighbour and not the OP

On narrow quiet roads even with a very wide vision splay its often impossible for the most experienced delivery vans or lorry delivery drivers to manage the turn

We do not know why the OP is in this situation but sometimes sadly we can all aquire a totally unreasonable and intransigent neighbour and theres no easy solution

As for moving or changing the car neither is cheap and given the last 10 yrs could be prohibitive for some
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby TEARDOWNWALL » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:23 pm

thin and crispy wrote:
TEARDOWNWALL wrote:
This is not a joke, its seriously making our lives more impractical

Our neighbour another house down did not build their wall to the end because the angle would be too tight, this inconsiderate neighbour did

Other neighbour manages as the turn is slightly less sharp


I didn't mean your situation was a joke. I meant your attitude to it, as expressed in this thread, seems to be a joke. It's so unbelievably unreasonable that I can't think of any other explanation for your posts - especially when considered together with your chosen username (which seems designed to convey the impression of an inflexible obsessive).

Why do you think you might have any sort of basis - moral, practical, legal or otherwise - for wanting him to tear down his wall, TEARDOWNWALL?

If you are genuinely finding it a problem to get your car into a 12-foot wide opening why not try:
a) Approaching from the other direction,
b) Getting a smaller car,
c) Move to a house with a wider drive, or
d) Live dangerously and let your rear near-side wheel mount the kerb.

I don't think your neighbour is being at all inconsiderate. He has done only what he is entitled to do (unless, of course, you know of any hitherto unmentioned planning restrictions which apply in his case). It is not reasonable for you to expect to drive over your neighbour's land. Maybe he doesn't like you doing so and has built the wall to put a stop to it.

Do you have any "history' with this neighbour by any chance?


Understand, the username is just because I could not really think of anything else and wanted to remain as anonymous as possible given I am posting pictures of where I live (just caution my part)

I don't want them to tear it down totally, I just wanted suggestions for a solution whether that be going to the council to get the kerb changed, legal action or to try and come to an agreement with the neighbour to just make it a foot or two shorter to reduce the chance of a potentially nasty accident, just by being a bit pragmatic

a) That is fine when it is our car - but as said, relatives and taxi drivers do not know this so they end up panicking now and parking on the kerb or further down - with elderly relatives who cannot walk easily this is not practical day to day
b) Not fair - our driveway is now unfit for purpose due to inconsiderate actions
c) Same as above, having to move house is just ridiculous to be honest
d) May have to!

They said they did not want "people driving on their drive" but has never mentioned to us it was an issue

We have genuinely have had no issue with any neighbour for twenty years, in fact we have helped the neighbour in question with their mothers health issues in the past and even went over the day before the building of the wall to check on them and they did not mention they were building it / bother to check / have any consideration
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby TEARDOWNWALL » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:28 pm

despair wrote:Thin and crispy

I do not in any way condone unreasonable behaviour and i agree we need to know the full story behind this

However for any neighbour to knowingly create a serious problem accessing a drive on a very busy road seems totally unreasonable from many angles

Even on a quiet road it could prove very difficult especially if the dropped kerb favours the other neighbour and not the OP

On narrow quiet roads even with a very wide vision splay its often impossible for the most experienced delivery vans or lorry delivery drivers to manage the turn

We do not know why the OP is in this situation but sometimes sadly we can all aquire a totally unreasonable and intransigent neighbour and theres no easy solution

As for moving or changing the car neither is cheap and given the last 10 yrs could be prohibitive for some


Thanks, happy to disclose further details if required

The pictures posted are screenshots from a video trial of the car trying to pull in, I tried posting the full video but not allowed external links and as such, had to try describe bits / try provide background whilst also trying to preserve anonymity

As such, appreciate it is hard for members to try and assist but I am willing to try provide more details where possible / needed.

I think we may have to pursue the council kerb change option seriously, but we have got in touch with a lawyer friend to check the video and see if there is any possible legal recourse (appreciate this is unlikely as it is their land, boundaries confirm this)
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby mugwump » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:07 pm

TEARDOWNWALL wrote:They said they did not want "people driving on their drive" but has never mentioned to us it was an issue


But what could you have done? It was you and visitors to your house that were driving on their drive, so even if he had mentioned it, you would still be driving on it as you claim you have problems turning in without encroaching.

The neighbour has taken a reasonable steps to mitigate the abuse of his drive

TEARDOWNWALL wrote:I don't want them to tear it down totally, I just wanted suggestions for a solution whether that be going to the council to get the kerb changed, legal action or to try and come to an agreement with the neighbour to just make it a foot or two shorter to reduce the chance of a potentially nasty accident, just by being a bit pragmatic


So you'd still want to use his drive?
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby mr sheen » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:08 pm

You still don't seem to get it.
You have the right to use the land you own as you like. Your neighbour has the same right. He is not being unreasonable, you are. He wants to stop you using his land.
The neighbour has the right to put up a barrier to stop you using the land he has paid hard cash for ...and he did!
It's nice if people consider others but often they end up in the 'no good deed goes unpunished' category when the people they have been nice to then claim a right to keep doing it. So he is stopping you and your visitors from using his land as is his right to prevent you from claiming a right to use it in the future and that is not only reasonable but advisable.

You have no legal recourse to seek to force someone else to let you use their land....this concept is absurd!
You have to get a solution for you and your visitors that remains within the confines of land that you own or the highway.
Your options have been outlined....
If the road is too busy and too dangerous you do not have to stay there you can move....why you think that is ridiculous is beyond me...we all make decisions daily about what circumstances and environments meet our needs and make changes when our needs change its common sense.
What you want is for someone else to give up their rights to make your life easier with no effort for you.
The other option is to offer to buy more land to make it easier for you and your visitors to enter and leave.
Or you can work out a creative way to get in and out of what currently exists...what about widening your drive on the other side?
It doesn't help that some contributors here are just joining the campaign to moan about neighbours along with you, instead of making it clear that actually you are the unreasonable one seeking ways to force a neighbour to use the land they own for your convenience
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby jonahinoz » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:52 am

Hi Tear Down,

You say that the Council have told you that "it will be at your expense". What will be at your expense? The survey? Or dropping the kerb?

When I applied for a dropped kerb, there was no mention of a fee for the survey. In the event, when I chased them for a decision, they said the already knew the road, and I don't think they actually did a survey. I had to pay for permission to drop the kerb, I think something over £100, and I had to pay an "approved" contractor to do the job ... they charge by the number of kerb stones. I paid about £1,500 for 6 metres to be dropped. Maybe I was lucky? As the dropped kerb is for your benefit, and yours alone, it seems only fair that you stand the cost, which will probably be less than any one of estate agents fees, solicitors fees, or moving your furniture.

I found an extract from the Highways Act on Google ... which I have been unable to find again. It said that if somebody "habitually bumps over the kerb to access their property, the Highways Authority may demand they have the kerb dropped, and if necessary the Highways Authority may drop the kerb, and sent the bill to the house owner." That might imply that it is not illegal to bump over a kerb to access your own property. Does anybody know where I can find that Act?

Me? I would bump over the kerb, but I drive a Land Rover. If I wanted to be bloody minded, I would park in my drive in such a way that it obstructed the neighbour's view when he was reversing out of his drive. Actually, I would find this morally difficult to do, but maybe just a couple of times, in the hope that the neighbour would want to negotiate.

I assume there is nothing in the original planning permission preventing your neighbour from building his wall? If so, there is nothing to prevent you growing a 6ft high hedge on your side of the wall (apart from "cutting off your own nose") Maybe mentioning your plans to do so, to your neighbour, might produce a reaction. Your neighbour has the right to build his wall. You have rights too.

OT ... my side fence extends about two metres beyond my garage, which accesses onto a narrow back lane. The fence obstructs my Land Rover (52ft turning circle). My neighbour's wife has just passed her test, bought a car, and has the same problem. I am thinking about removing some of my fence, if my neighbour agrees that we can each clip the other's corner to access our own property ... with the agreement documented.

John W
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby arborlad » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:55 am

TEARDOWNWALL wrote:I think we may have to pursue the council kerb change option seriously,




I think this is the only realistic option open to you, extending the dropped kerb a metre or so to the right will improve your access to your drive and is a relatively simple operation compared to making any changes to the central island. Consider it an investment in your property, any future owners will welcome the improved access.

This thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20623 is the other side of the coin, so to speak.

If there are other central islands in your road, a look at how they relate to driveways and dimensions of the dropped kerbs may give you some ideas.
arborlad

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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby TEARDOWNWALL » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:07 pm

jonahinoz wrote:Hi Tear Down,

You say that the Council have told you that "it will be at your expense". What will be at your expense? The survey? Or dropping the kerb?

When I applied for a dropped kerb, there was no mention of a fee for the survey. In the event, when I chased them for a decision, they said the already knew the road, and I don't think they actually did a survey. I had to pay for permission to drop the kerb, I think something over £100, and I had to pay an "approved" contractor to do the job ... they charge by the number of kerb stones. I paid about £1,500 for 6 metres to be dropped. Maybe I was lucky? As the dropped kerb is for your benefit, and yours alone, it seems only fair that you stand the cost, which will probably be less than any one of estate agents fees, solicitors fees, or moving your furniture.

I found an extract from the Highways Act on Google ... which I have been unable to find again. It said that if somebody "habitually bumps over the kerb to access their property, the Highways Authority may demand they have the kerb dropped, and if necessary the Highways Authority may drop the kerb, and sent the bill to the house owner." That might imply that it is not illegal to bump over a kerb to access your own property. Does anybody know where I can find that Act?

Me? I would bump over the kerb, but I drive a Land Rover. If I wanted to be bloody minded, I would park in my drive in such a way that it obstructed the neighbour's view when he was reversing out of his drive. Actually, I would find this morally difficult to do, but maybe just a couple of times, in the hope that the neighbour would want to negotiate.

I assume there is nothing in the original planning permission preventing your neighbour from building his wall? If so, there is nothing to prevent you growing a 6ft high hedge on your side of the wall (apart from "cutting off your own nose") Maybe mentioning your plans to do so, to your neighbour, might produce a reaction. Your neighbour has the right to build his wall. You have rights too.

OT ... my side fence extends about two metres beyond my garage, which accesses onto a narrow back lane. The fence obstructs my Land Rover (52ft turning circle). My neighbour's wife has just passed her test, bought a car, and has the same problem. I am thinking about removing some of my fence, if my neighbour agrees that we can each clip the other's corner to access our own property ... with the agreement documented.

John W


Both - survey and kerb around £90 for survey and at least £300 for the work [but hard to say definitively without survey]

Agree, likely I will bear the cost as it is for my benefit - and yeah, does seem the most cost effective and reasonable option

Interesting what you say re. highway Act - will have to check that, may bring it up with our lawyer friend when they are free to check in more detail

Well, we refuse to help the neighbour with parcels or anything else now, essentially cut ties for the time being and of course, there are plenty of spiteful things we could do. But, I am keen to do this the right way and come to an amicable solution which is cost effective for everyone

The boundary is theirs so they can build a wall there if they want legally I think up to a certain height

Your scenario is interesting, sounds like a reasonable position!

Many thanks for your help
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby TEARDOWNWALL » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:13 pm

arborlad wrote:
TEARDOWNWALL wrote:I think we may have to pursue the council kerb change option seriously,




I think this is the only realistic option open to you, extending the dropped kerb a metre or so to the right will improve your access to your drive and is a relatively simple operation compared to making any changes to the central island. Consider it an investment in your property, any future owners will welcome the improved access.

This thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20623 is the other side of the coin, so to speak.

If there are other central islands in your road, a look at how they relate to driveways and dimensions of the dropped kerbs may give you some ideas.


Agree, will have to measure properly and give the council more detail and see what is possible or not and then get the £90 survey done by the council if we intend to follow this course of action further

Indeed, not even about the value, utmost concern is safety for myself and other road users because this road has a fair amount of accidents if people drive recklessly (we have around 2 per year e.g. flipped cars, people going into the island, a truck once overturned on the bend, motorcyclist died going into a lampost)

Interesting thread, thank you for locating - I have tried to find these scenarios but struggled to do so, sounds like the lawyer option is expensive but may be worth a bluff if I can get a friend / family to do it!

Will also take a look at those, there is one around ~30 metres before the bend

Thank you for constructive suggestions
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby jonahinoz » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:58 am

Hi Teardown,

I got my finger out, did some Googling

Google HIGHWAYS ACT 1980 SECTION 184, which covers driving over the footpath. There seems to be nothing there to prevent you driving over the footpath to access your own property, apart from a potential bill.

I also found a rant, sorry, a blog ... pedestrianliberation.org/the-law-2

Sensibly written, and I found it interesting from start to finish ... EG: If there is insufficient room to push a wide push-chair, you cannot complain about obstruction unless you are pushing a wide push-chair at the time. That's not fair, I haven't got a wide push-chair. :D

There seems to be little to stop you parking on the foot-path (though HGVs are expressly prohibited from doing so, apart from loading and unloading - when terms and conditions apply). You also seem expressly permitted to drive over the footpath (and kerb?) to access property that you occupy.

Yes ... an amicable agreement is best. But until then, there is a lot of fun in thinking up devious ways of retaliating ... it makes you feel a lot better ... after which you can go and be friends again.

If I was thinking about buying your house, being unable to access with my Land Rover would be a "deal breaker".

John W
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby Collaborate » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:22 am

While you're perfectly at liberty to refuse to take in parcels, speak to them etc, I shudder at the notion that you have a reasonable grievance against them for not letting you encroach on their side of the boundary.

From your most recent post this is all about the fact that you don't think you should have to spend £90 + £300 to resolve your problem within the confines of your own property, and wanted to look in to ways in which you could force your (presumably long suffering) neighbour to take down their new wall (that probably cost more than £390) to suit you.

If I were them I'd make that wall 2m high.
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby jonahinoz » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:44 am

Hi,

I have mixed feelings about the sentiments you express.

If I was Teardown, I would be aggrieved that my neighbour had extended his wall ... making things more hazardous ... but acknowledging his right to do so.

If I was his neighbour, I would have acknowledged that extending my wall would make life difficult for Teardown, and not extended it, even though it was my right to do so. If there were "issues" between myself and Teardown, I might have demonstrated, briefly, that I could make life difficult.

Perhaps I was sent to the wrong sort of school?

Me? I would wrong-foot the neighbour by being excessively nice to him, without crawling. I do that when my wife is giving me stick. "Yes dear, your father was right, I am not good enough for you." Etc. But not in a sarcastic tone. She hates it, drives her wild, begs me to stop.

John W
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:29 am

Hi John W,

making things more hazardous

how have things become more hazardous?

a car is making a standard manoeuvre and any qualified driver approaching such a hazard should be capable of dealing with it - look in mirror, apply brakes, job done.

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby jonahinoz » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:20 pm

how have things become more hazardous? a car is making a standard manoeuvre and any qualified driver approaching such a hazard should be capable of dealing with it - look in mirror, apply brakes, job done.

Hi Mac,

I am surprised that a qualified and experienced driver can ask such a question.

Yes, there should be no problem for Teardown, to enter his drive. The problem comes in when you have an inexperienced, possibly road-enraged, driving against the clock, sitting on your tail, not understanding what you are going to do.

If somebody runs into the back of my car, it is usually their fault. Personally, I would rather they didn't.

OT ... within the last half hour, a taxi (experienced driver?) pulled out of a side road without stopping, intending to go straight across the major road. He was T-boned. Accidents shouldn't happen, but they do. Co-incidentally, I wrote to my Highways Department yesterday, pointing out how hazardous this junction is ... but I was expecting a head-on collision between opposing cars on the major road. I am unhappy when the Planners force me into a position where I am vunerable.

John W
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Re: Neighbour built wall between driveways - creating hazard

Postby TEARDOWNWALL » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:21 pm

Collaborate wrote:While you're perfectly at liberty to refuse to take in parcels, speak to them etc, I shudder at the notion that you have a reasonable grievance against them for not letting you encroach on their side of the boundary.

From your most recent post this is all about the fact that you don't think you should have to spend £90 + £300 to resolve your problem within the confines of your own property, and wanted to look in to ways in which you could force your (presumably long suffering) neighbour to take down their new wall (that probably cost more than £390) to suit you.

If I were them I'd make that wall 2m high.


The grievance is that it is just a foot or two too long, we said ok build it (their right to do so) but please just do not make it extend all the way to the end

Previously, when there was a wall it was not all the way to the end, it was annoying but far more manageable. In fact, we could get a long Mercedes van into our driveway (also this was before the island)

Their reason for wanting it to go to the end was "to make it symmetrical" with the other wall they were building (and had to subsequently had to tear down mid construction as it was not their land - haha!) - now it does not even serve the purpose they intended

And yeah, why should I have to fork out of a problem that I did not create?
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