so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Sam46 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:35 pm

:x
Hi first post.
event happened 3 weeks ago, long history so will post in parts so not to bore :lol:
Have seen similar posts and noticed just how many do not update, hope that by staying till the end it will help anybody else who finds their selves in this position.
WHAT HAS HAPPENED.THIS IS 6 MONTHS AFTER SOLICITORS LETTER ASKING US TO RE-ALINE.THEY WERE TOLD NO.
we have 20 panels 6ft x 6ft set in concrete posts, they sat on top of concrete base 8in (4 inch below ground, 4 above) all posts are 4ft and panels were 4ft until we adapted the height ( this will be explained when I write the history) the bottom 5 were left at 4ft. this is the neighbours problem, these 5 panels.

So while we were away she employed someone to.
remove/smash out down to ground level the 5, 6ft lengths of concrete base. placed on top of these are 5, 12inch white gravel boards. all 5 panels removed, damaged and returned into our property. All posts returned damaged, with except the one that is containing her first new panels. :o
5 new panels bright red, ours are green. 5ft panels,6ft new bright white posts that are now over into our property starting at 5in to 12inch. to fit these new posts they have dug into the concrete base behind our 2 sheds. and damaged the shed panel. they have also damaged plants. and the bottom post dug into our grass area filled with concrete. within inches of where our pets are buried.

will let people digest and follow up with history.
SAM
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Eliza » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:48 pm

Things so often seem to happen whilst people are away.

Well I guess the first thing is to keep a darn good eye on when she's away and restore the status quo.

How much do you estimate she owes you for the damage she has done to your property?
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Sam46 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:27 pm

Have been excepted through legal cover on house insurance.
They have had photo's and are sending assessor out on Friday, so not sure yet, covered for damage/trespass. want nothing more than to rip them out :evil: but been advised to leave alone and go for adverse possession under old rules.
will update further
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Eliza » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:54 am

Now confused.

You talk about "bright white posts...over into your property by 5 to 12 inches". From that it sounds like they've put these posts in your garden. But you are now talking about going for adverse possession.

Why would you be going for adverse possession if that 5 to 12 inches is in your garden anyway?

Back when your fence was originally put up - was it put up totally within the boundaries of your garden on the one hand? Or was it put up straying over into the neighbours garden and this few inches you are talking about is their garden and you have been using it for years and, in actual fact, what has happened is that the neighbour has now enclosed that bit of their garden back into being part of their garden again (as it sounds like it was in the first place)?

Did that solicitors letter they sent to you actually say words to the effect of "That bit of land is our clients garden. Has always been our clients garden. Now move the fence from wrong position to correct position - so that its back in our clients garden where it belongs"?
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Morgan Sweet » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:50 am

There should be no surprise that it is usually done when a party is on holiday, it is to prevent physical confrontation and to (importantly) complete the work. If the solicitor wrote saying fence is in wrong position asking you to move it and you replied, no, they are legally allowed to erect a fence up to what they consider is their LR boundary. You off course can challenge this with evidence and can claim for any damage to your property. It is always best to try and arbitrate etc., the problem is unless both are prepared to negotiate it gets expensive. They may have considered that it was costing them money in asking you to move your fence and taking the costly legal route and they chose to move the fence themselves and put the problem in your hands. Your insurance company saying that you could apply for adverse possession, implies (to me) that the original fence was in the incorrect position. I do not understand all the rules on adverse possession but I would also have thought that the solicitor telling you that the fence is in the wrong position and the neighbour fencing to what they consider is their Title may prevent a claim.

It is good that you have legal insurance, however most boundary disputes handled by insurance companies require claimants to get an independent Surveyor's report regarding the boundary position before they will act.
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Sam46 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:35 am

Wall and fence was already erected in 1985 when we moved in. the builder who built these houses in 1928,built the wall . he lived in this house until 1978,and his wife until 1980,daughter lived here until we brought in 1985.boundary position has never changed.
she claimed that it was in her property in 2001 for the first time,,she moved in 1992,second wife, her husband was then divorced guy already here before us. think he moved in about 1982. claiming over by 2 inch, then 4 inch, that was the whole length not just the 5 panels,because we fell out and she then wanted 6ft feet fences, because we did not want 6ft fences she then started saying we were encroaching.boundary has always been our responsibility, covenant in deeds, never been shared.

the dispute was all of her making, to get her own way. her husband had no problem at all. we have a signed letter saying the boundary is not in dispute, signed by both of them in 2002.

at the bottom of the gardens her wall joins ours. ours built first, her wall the other side. she is claiming the wall that the fence is on was built in her land. the solicitors wrote asking us to reposition the bottom 5 to the point referenced to.. 2 inches.. they claim this would have been the legal boundary from her conveyance dated April 1929...mine is December 1928..

what she has done, not as they claim her legal right to reposition by 2INCH but come much further in.
will have to write the history in full.

yes have been told that we may have to have survey to challenge.
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Morgan Sweet » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:44 pm

The complication with boundary disputes (from my experience) is that getting someone to move an incorrectly positioned wall/fence can be expensive if the other party will not accept that it is in the wrong place or agree to a joint declaration of the boundary. The party feeling that the wall is in the wrong position with evidence can always put the wall where they think it should go and therefore give the other party the same problem. If you have legal insurance then you will probably be asked to pay for a survey and if the wall is not correctly sited they should take legal action for you.
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Sam46 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:29 pm

Hi. thanks to those who have responded, I am very grateful, am quite struggling with all that is going on , can not get to grips with all that the solicitor from insurance is saying adverse possession etc. finding it very confusing. she is at the moment checking my deeds and neighbours. have been told that she can do all that needs doing that we are not covered for if we retain her. she is prepared to give us a discounted fixed fee,, :D

I will have to say that I hope that people here can help/advice/ I will as soon as I can put history.. what was in her solicitors letter ETC. as soon as possible.
To be truthful I realise I am probably not making much sense, little bit emotion today as our son would have been 21 tomorrow, we lost him in December.

SAM
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Sam46 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:32 pm

So we moved in 1985.just "Brian" then living next door.
The concrete wall/base was already in place built in 1928,on top of this was 3ft high picket fence with chicken wire on Brian's side.
In 1987 we placed 4ft concrete posts and 4ft panels on top of this wall. Brian no longer had his birds he removed the wire, the bottom 5 panels were at that time between his 3 sheds/coops/and our 2 sheds.we Paid for all the fence as it was/is our responsibility.

"June" second wife moved in 1992,all ok until we, me and her fell out in 2001.
We then had notes pushed through the door saying that THEY wanted 6ft fences. first 3 we ignored. all letters stated from Brian and June.
4th letter said that it was not fair of us not to respond, so we replied with a letter back through their door, that we were happy with our fence height. had been since 1987 when installed, we did not want 6ft and we did not want to go to the expense of replacing . we also said that we did not want different heights on both sides of our garden, we suggested that if they were not happy then they should install their own 6ft fence.

We then get another note saying "we have now had a survey which clearly states that your entire wall and fence is over our property by 2inches." we could insist that you demolish your wall and remove your entire fence. however we will let this trespass go if you replace the bottom 5 panels to 6ft.
(no copy of survey enclosed)my husband then went around to speak to Brian who claimed that he knew nothing at all about the letters. they had been sent without his knowledge, they had not had a survey. there is not a problem with the fence, he said he would sort her out. letters then stopped.

Feb 2002 Brain came around to say that they were going to erect their own fence, and gave us a letter signed by both of them saying that there was not and never had been a problem with the height of or position of fence, there is no boundary dispute.
so they built fence 6ft concrete posts and panels,,, free standing around 8 inches away from ours,, ending at their sheds,,,
looked a right mess, so we then to disguise the look, changed our panels to 6ft in the 4ft posts and adapted the centres with wood batons,
Within 2 weeks they removed their panels, a week later removed the posts,,,, so re using ours, we paid out. they or she got own way in the end. never spoke again.
SAM
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby MacadamB53 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:19 pm

Hi Sam46,

thanks for the potted history - I'm confused, though, because it makes not reference to the damage/removal of your fence as mentioned in your OP.

please clarify...

Kind regards, Mac
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Sam46 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:24 pm

Hi.
was trying to post again and was timed out. lap top playing up.
They removed their fence in 2002.
She moved our 5 panels IN 2017...4 weeks ago. this is when the damage was done. 16 years after she first said we were on her land.
will have to post again when back from work.
All went quite in 2002 after they removed never spoke again. she started again after a 8 year break in 2010 when he died.
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Sam46 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:31 pm

So 8 years after they removed their fence, October 2010 other neighbour told us that Brian had died.
By December she had a lot of garden work done and removed the 3 sheds/coops. the 5 4t feet panels were then exposed on her side.
out of the blue we received the following recorded letters.

Letter 1 Jan 2011.
" you are aware that I have had my sheds removed.
I now require you to change the bottom 5 panels to 6ft.
to re - instate my privacy, this boundary is your responsibility.
I require this within the next 7 days.
LETTER IGNORED BY US.

Letter 2 May 2011.
You are aware that you are on my property by 6 INCHES...... :lol: changed again.
I will over look this trespass if you alter the bottom 5 panels.
IGNORED AGAIN.

Letter 3 July 2011.
It is with regret that I have to write to you again.
You are responsible for the maintaining of this fence. and therefore responsible for privacy.
You have been aware since 2001 that you are trespassing and attempting to steal my land.
However I will allow your wall/fence to remain if within the next 7 days you replace the bottom 5 panels to 6ft.

We responded with a letter through the door saying.
We are not and never have been on your property.
We will not change any aspect of our fence.
We are not responsible for your privacy. and would suggest that if you want privacy re instated you replace the sheds that you removed.

Letter 4 Sept 2011.
Letter entitled dead lock/breaching of land.
I have taken legal advise , my solicitor has informed me that I have the legal right to remove your trespass. It is called self help.
I have been advised to send the following.
I instruct you to remove your entire wall and 20 fence panels off my property within 14 days of this letter.
Failure will result in my gardener removing the 5 bottom 4ft panels and replacing them with 6ft.
They will be enclosed into your posts to keep the fence line straight.
I will then be entitled to sue you for my expense.

SAM
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Sam46 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:29 pm

So we responded by recorded letter we asked why her solicitor had not written.
We asked that this solicitor now contact us and enclose a copy of the claimed survey.. with every changing measurements. will this be the one that your husband denied ? In 2001/2002 around the time that you both signed to say that there is not a problem with the fence? the same fence position from 1987 still there now.
confirmation that you have been told to instruct us to remove after this length of time with no proof what so ever been shown to us. this is your legal right.
And a explanation of why we have to remove the entire wall and fence, but "your gardener will only be replacing the 5 panels."
Would this not just be a different height only , to suit you , still in the same position, again all about you getting your own way.
Time now to put this to bed you have been making these allegations off and on since 2001. get your solicitor to contact us, we will not respond to you again.


So response signed for 2011. we never had a reply from solicitor. and nothing further from her for another 5 YEARS until the following was put through the door AUGUST 2016.
"Are you prepared to allow me at my own cost to replace your 5 4ft panels with 6ft.
I would need to enclose them into your concrete posts. To keep the fence line straight.
I think that life is to short to fall out over 5 panels and hope that you feel the same.
I look forward to your response.

She did not get one. 5 months later we got a solicitor letter.
will post that and our response tomorrow.
SAM
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Sam46 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:04 pm

Solicitors letter received January 2017.

Re our client Mrs xxx
We have been instructed to advise Mrs xxx the owner and registered proprietor of xxx address ( the property )
We note that you are the owners and registered proprietors of xxx address ( your property )

The primary source of the boundary line between any two properties is the conveyance whereby the ownership of those properties was divided.
According, Ascertaining the line of the boundary involves considering the relevant conveyance against the background facts which were available to the parties at the time of the conveyance. Therefore it is necessary to start when considering the line of the legal boundary with the 1929 conveyance.

Previously our client and her husband employed the services of a surveyor, from this they obtained a supplemental plan, this was extracted from the original plan to the 1929 conveyance. our client informs that this plan clearly pointed to a encroachment of approx. 2 inches by the wall and fence position.
This plan has been misplaced, however our client can confirm that you are aware of this plan.

WILL HAVE TO CARRY ON IN ANOTHER POST.SAM.INTERNET GOING OFF/ON DONT WANT TO BE TIMED OUT AGAIN.
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Re: so fence being evicted after 32 years,while on holiday

Postby Sam46 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:38 pm

LETTER CONTINUED.

We are further informed that in mid 1980s a fence 4 foot in height was erected by yourselves, placed on to wall, midline, adjoining the property and your property.
Subsequently in or about 2002 you replaced with panels of 6 foot, however the original 5 panels at the bottom of the gardens separating the property from your property remain at 4 foot.

As our client is recently bereaved and now living alone she requires the added security and privacy of a complete 6 foot fence.
To maintain neighbour harmony our client is not requesting realignment of the wall and fence to the legal position that was contained in the aforementioned supplemental plan.

We are therefore instructed by our client to request that you replace the 5 original 4 foot panels at the rear of the gardens with 6 foot.
We require your written conformation that by 29th January 2017 you have complied with the request set out in this letter.


END OF LETTER.
no mention of what will happen if we do not comply.
no mention of legal rights.
we responded by recorded will put that next.
we had no reply or further letter.. she then 6 month later did as in op.
SAM
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