Claim Unregistered Land

Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby ukmicky » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:41 pm

DIYBath wrote:Thanks for the great advice.

I have got a map that shows that which has been adopted by Highways it shows a space between my land and the adopted Highways land.

From what Mac says it sounds like I'm covered as the land is between my drive entrance and the road.

One thing I do notice is that it's difficult to identify the exact location of the land, have tried measuring. Measurements from my property to my boundary match but those from the curb to the property do not. Not sure whats up with that?

Is there a process that a layman could follow to settle on the location of the land?


The map you got from highways does not show the full extent of the land in your area that is classed as highway. It only shows what they have adopted. Most areas along side roads become highways through dedication.
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby DIYBath » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:24 pm

ukmicky wrote:
DIYBath wrote:The map you got from highways does not show the full extent of the land in your area that is classed as highway. It only shows what they have adopted. Most areas along side roads become highways through dedication.


I'm no expert (obviously) but doesn't the SIM (mentioned earlier) indicate that it is unregistered land not adopted by Highways?

Just a thought but I can see a line defining the area of tarmac laid by highways would this indicate the line at which the adopted highway ends?
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby mr sheen » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:15 pm

You seem to be confusing the legal highway and adopted tarmaced roadway. Verges and roads are often owned by someone, in some cases even shown as part of the owned land on deeds but once designated part of the highway you can't fence them off or treat them as if you own them any more.
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby MacadamB53 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:04 pm

DIYBath wrote:
ukmicky wrote:
DIYBath wrote:The map you got from highways does not show the full extent of the land in your area that is classed as highway. It only shows what they have adopted. Most areas along side roads become highways through dedication.


I'm no expert (obviously) but doesn't the SIM (mentioned earlier) indicate that it is unregistered land not adopted by Highways?

Just a thought but I can see a line defining the area of tarmac laid by highways would this indicate the line at which the adopted highway ends?
if you were to submit a SIM for an area of the land set out as a road then the chances are this would also come back confirming that land is unregistered.

when a road is adopted the ownership doesn’t change - the HA doesn’t get registered as owner.

what happens is from there on in the surface is considered to be the responsibility of the HA and because of this the ownership becomes a moot point because the owner cannot use the land anymore.

when a route is dedicated as a highway by a landowner (or is presumed to be dedicated through long, unchallenged use by the public as of right) the width of the highway is not limited to that part which has been set out as a road unless this is mentioned in the dedication (or if the evidence of long use establishes it).

hope this helps to clarify the situation.

kind regards, Mac
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby arborlad » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:34 am

DIYBath wrote:Just a thought but I can see a line defining the area of tarmac laid by highways would this indicate the line at which the adopted highway ends?




This is the sort of thing I was meaning when I asked this:


arborlad wrote:What drew your attention to this piece of land, what made it stand out from the rest?




It may not be definitive but it will have a lot more accuracy than anything on paper.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby DIYBath » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:50 pm

Does it help that the original conveyance map dated a year before the house was built seems to include the unregistered land within red outline?

It's a very odd shape so it does seem rather clear on the proposed development.

Sorry only just noticed this as I went through the docs.
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:36 pm

DIYBath wrote:Does it help that the original conveyance map dated a year before the house was built seems to include the unregistered land within red outline?

It's a very odd shape so it does seem rather clear on the proposed development.

Sorry only just noticed this as I went through the docs.
does it help what?
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby DIYBath » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:18 am

[/quote]does it help what?[/quote]

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

The map in the original conveyance shows a red line that marks my property boundary that encapsulates the unregistered land.

Doesn't this prove that I am the original owner of this unregistered land?
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:58 pm

DIYBath wrote:
does it help what?[/quote]

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

The map in the original conveyance shows a red line that marks my property boundary that encapsulates the unregistered land.

Doesn't this prove that I am the original owner of this unregistered land?[/quote]seems I wasn’t clear either :)

you do not need to prove you own it - the law presumes you do (ie considers it a fact).

kind regards, Mac
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby DIYBath » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:10 pm

Thanks Mac,

You were clear but some others seem to disagree.

Justin
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby ukmicky » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:12 am

If this is related to the other topic with the neighbour accessing your road, ownership is not the issue . The issue is ,is it highway ,because even if you own it, If its highway you cant fence it or stop others using it..
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby DIYBath » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:16 pm

ukmicky wrote:If this is related to the other topic with the neighbour accessing your road, ownership is not the issue . The issue is ,is it highway ,because even if you own it, If its highway you cant fence it or stop others using it..


Thanks ukmicky...

That was my next question but how do I find that out?

I can see no indications on the ground so to speak that show whats adopted and whats not.

Highways have supplied a map showing what they have adopted. This indicates (to me at least) that the adopted land sits outside the boundary identified in the conveyance map. In other words, the unregistered land doesn't seem to be adopted by Highways, but how to know for sure?

The neighbour's gate is in front of the unregistered land that now seems to be under my ownership.

As I say he's causing us trouble so it would be good to keep his behaviour under control by perhaps eliminating or fencing off his access.
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby mr sheen » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:43 pm

Highway can still be owned and the 'adoption' or otherwise is not really relevant.

You are being told the same thing in many ways but don't appear to be taking on board what is being said. In order to be able to possess the land in question, you will need to exclude all others but if it is 'designated' highway (which doesn't necessarily require it to be 'adopted') you will never be able to possess it for your exclusive use.

Your motives are also rather confusing ....you are now talking about seeking to eliminate or fence of a neighbour's access....what makes you think you have the right to do this and whilst you want to complain about the neighbour's behaviour, what you propose makes you appear to be the NFH ....is this your intention?

Probably time to take stock and get things back into perspective. Start by looking at your deeds to refresh your memory about what exactly you bought.
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby ukmicky » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:25 am

legal presumption” means the law considers it as a fact unless presented with contrary evidence.

Mac ,not quite correct because a prima facie case will still need to be shown , showing why the presumption should stand.

DIYBATH

1. In regards to the highway question . The legal presumption is unless there is contrary evidence all land adjacent to a highway that is left open allowing the public to walk freely over it is highway up to the point of any fences or if there is a ditch up to the start of the ditch. Long use by the public also turns it into a highway through presumed dedication

2 Just because there is a legal presumption that doesn’t automatically mean you own the road. A court would require Prima Facia evidence that the presumption that you own the road or verge or strip of land should stand. That would not be easy because the land is unregistered and its possible someone out there may have a deed or other evidence showing the developers retained ownership. The land registry would almost certainly refuse any request to register it in your name without a court order because its unregistered and if they got it wrong and someone turned up with an unregistered deed showing the ownership of the road and land beyond your property was not transferred to the frontages they would have to pay out compensation.

4.The neighbour who uses it as access ,his house is adjacent to the road so he is a frontager also even if its the rear of his house. Could he lay claim to all or part of the strip under the presumption. What's good for the goose may also be good for the gander.

5 . The real nail in your coffin in respect to you owning the strip of land or the road up to the center is the fact that the developers gave you a right of way over it until the road was adopted . . You cant own the road because you were granted a ROW to use it and also because the developers gave it up for adoption. They couldn't give it up for adoption if it was given to the frontages under the presumption so there is compelling evidence it was not transferred to your property when your house was sold.

Lastly
Does it help that the original conveyance map dated a year before the house was built seems to include the unregistered land within red outline? It's a very odd shape so it does seem rather clear on the proposed development.
Not really . As you say it was the proposed development map and they normally change come the end . You would need to show that's how the development ended up and that this strip of land was included in your title.

arborlad

You pointing out to people that they shouldn't create more than one thread holds true here because number 5 above would have been noticed a lot sooner if it was one single thread.
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Re: Claim Unregistered Land

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:32 am

Hi ukmicky,

Mac ,not quite correct because a prima facie case will still need to be shown , showing why the presumption should stand.

proof of ownership of the OP’s property would be suffice.

but isn’t it the plaintiff, rather than the defendant, who is required to provide a Prima Facie case?

kind regards, Mac
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